VERY close reaching

[gettinthere]

Sailing my 1985 Endeavour 42 (33 ft LWL) across Penobscot Bay today, very close reaching. The numbers seem too good. I do not have true wind reading capability but I have an ap that does the conversions.
So here's the numbers...
Apparent wind 18 to 20 knots
Apparent wind angle 10 to 20 degrees
Boat speed over ground around 5 to 6 knots, heavily reefed, quite a bit of heel.
My calculator says that for 18k apparent wind speed, 20 degrees apparent wind angle, 5k boat speed=
True wind speed 13k, true wind direction 27 degrees, vmg 4.4

Dodging a LOT of lobster pots indicated a lot of leeway until the wind died down some, then not much leeway.

My flag is on a staff on the center of the dinghy davit and it looked like 20 degrees or less. I have tell tales on the standing rigging and they looked the same.
I am surprised that I can sail 27 degrees true. I expect this boat should sail to about 45 degrees true. I find it hard to accept that the wind instrument is 25 degrees off. When I motor with no wind, the wind indicator points directly at zero. And remember, the flag looked to be flying 10 to 20 degrees (apparent). What am I missing?

 

[Davidasailor26]

10 to 20 degrees apparent shouldn't really be possible, so I'm guessing something is off. The closest I can sustain is about 25-30 apparent. The flag at the back of your boat and the telltales on the rig may be affected by the exhaust air off the sails, and "read" closer to the wind from that.

By the way, being as close to the wind as possible is "close hauled". Close reaching is the point of sail after you start heading down from close hauled - say around 40-50 apparent or so.

 

[Jackdaw]

What is your speed over the water?
Why are you 'heavily reefed' in 12 knots of true wind?

Correct your true wind angle should be about 45 for your boat. Something is off. GIGO.

 

[Kings Gambit]

If you're really doing that you're likely pinching, which could explain your leeway but the boat should also flatten out some. On your Endeavor I imagine your jib would be noticeably luffing some--did you have it up or out (deployed)?

VMG to wind 4.44
True Wind Angle 27.3 °
Apparent Wind Angle 20 °
True Wind Speed 13.4
Apparent Wind Speed 18
Boat Speed 5
Boat speed as % of true wind speed 37.3
VMG as % of true wind speed 33.1

 

[Kings Gambit]

By the way, being as close to the wind as possible is "close hauled". Close reaching is the point of sail after you start heading down from close hauled - say around 40-50 apparent or so.

Should clarify the above to say that sailing as close to the eye of the true wind as is "possible" is close-hauled. I don't wish to reopen a long debate about true versus apparent wind and points of sail, but that is the definition of "close-hauled" found in the annals of Admiralty Law.

 

[Jackdaw]

Should clarify the above to say that sailing as close to the eye of the true wind as is "possible" is close-hauled. I don't wish to reopen a long debate about true versus apparent wind and points of sail, but that is the definition of "close-hauled" found in the annals of Admiralty Law.

Isn't that exactly what he said???

 

[Kings Gambit]

Isn't that exactly what he said???

Yes and no. I think one needs to indicate true wind for clarity. So, here it is again. Also, our use of "is possible" is not quite the same, evidently.

In admiralty law, this nautical term [close-hauled] means the arrangement or trim of a vessel's sails when she endeavors to make a progress in the nearest direction possible towards that point of the compass from which the wind blows. But a vessel may be considered as close-hauled, although she is not quite so near to the wind as she could possibly lie.

 

[gettinthere]

Apparent wind was gusting up to 22k and we had a lot of lobster pots to dodge so I was in no hurry.

I changed parameters a bit to look for somethimg more sensible

Boat speed 6k, which we did hit when falling off a bit.
Apparent wind 30 degrees, giving to a bit of error in the readout
Apparent wind speed 25k, also giving to errors in readout. I'm certainly no expert but this is what it tended to feel like.
These would give:
True wind speed of 20k
True wind direction of 39 degrees.

So I suspect the wind angle was 20 to 30 apparent, a 10 degree error. That would be easy to misjudge looking at the flag.
Combined with a 25k apparent wind speed, which would be about 5 to 7 knot error.

But again, motoring with no wind, I dont see any 10 degree error. Would the error increase as wind speed increases?

 

[Kings Gambit]

Computations
VMG to wind 4.69
True Wind Angle 38.6 °
Apparent Wind Angle 30 °
True Wind Speed 20
Apparent Wind Speed 25
Boat Speed 6
Boat speed as % of true wind speed 30
VMG as % of true wind speed 23.4

 

[Jackdaw]

Yes and no. I think one needs to indicate true wind for clarity. So, here it is again. Also, our use of "is possible" is not quite the same, evidently.

In admiralty law, this nautical term [close-hauled] means the arrangement or trim of a vessel's sails when she endeavors to make a progress in the nearest direction possible towards that point of the compass from which the wind blows. But a vessel may be considered as close-hauled, although she is not quite so near to the wind as she could possibly lie.

I don't get it. You can't be close hauled to true wind and not be close hauled to apparent. Or vice versa .

While not relevant to this point, that 'may be considered' section is just to prevent a run down a legal rat-hole about if it would have been possible for a boat to be 1 degree tighter to the wind.

 

[Kings Gambit]

I don't get it. You can't be close hauled to true wind and not be close hauled to apparent. Or vice versa.

Just trying to maintain the distinction between a point of sail (i.e., close reach) which is relative to the true wind, and the trim setting of a sailboat (i.e., close-hauled) which is relative to the apparent wind. It just so happens that when beating (POS) the boat is usually trimmed to close-hauled as well, even if it is not as close to the (true) wind "as she could possibly lie." That fact might come into evidence when two one-design boats identically rigged are close-hauled with different headings on the exact same true wind direction and speed--i.e., one is pointing higher than the other. So one of 'em, perhaps both of 'em, may not be lying as close to the true wind as she could possibly be.

Also, I don't think there is harm or confusion if folks are introduced to the etymology of words and terms in common use today. I don't think we're sinking into a legal rat-hole here that is anywhere near what it is like in a protest committee hearing!!

 

[gettinthere]

Sheeesh. Enough eh!

 

[RussC]

Was there not a compass on-board?

 

[Kings Gambit]

Sheeesh. Enough eh!

Well--you asked the question--don't you wish to have the answer fully fleshed out? Obviously, we cannot determine the possibility or likelihood of the performance of your yacht as described until we finally decide what is was that you were actually doing. Still don't know if your headsail was deployed and whether or not it was noticeably luffing.

 

[gettinthere]

Does it actually matter if I wrote 'close reaching' vs 'close hauled' in determining what actually was happening regarding the TRUE WIND ANGLE?
I could have called it 'far farting' and it wouldnt matter to the issue I was asking about, whether my boat could point (is that the correct word) that high (is that the correct word).

Oooooooops, I forgot an apostrophe in the word wouldn't, 2 week suspension for me!!

 

[Kings Gambit]

Does it actually matter if I wrote 'close reaching' vs 'close hauled' in determining what actually was happening regarding the TRUE WIND ANGLE?
I could have called it 'far farting' and it wouldnt matter to the issue I was asking about, whether my boat could point (is that the correct word) that high (is that the correct word).

Oooooooops, I forgot an apostrophe in the word wouldn't, 2 week suspension for me!!

I guess that means no!

 

[gettinthere]

I missed the question on the genoa. Its a 135 and it was heavily reefed/furled.

Just thought the minutia of the legalese of close reach vs close hauled was getting excessive. I was expecting a protest and lawyers to be lined up any minute.

 

[agprice22]

Close hauled
Close reach
Beam reach
Broad reach
Run


His post says Close reach. He meant close hauled.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Close hauled
Close reach
Beam reach
Broad reach
Run


His post says Close reach. He meant close hauled.

It's actually:

Beat
Close reach
Beam reach
Broad reach
Run

That's my point: being close-hauled you're probably on a beat. But as we've discovered in prior discussions, those very fast catamarans, for example, can be close-hauled while on a beam reach, i.e., where the true wind direction is virtually 90 deg a-beam. The sail trim (e.g., being close-hauled) is to the apparent wind whereas your point of sail (beam reach) is to the true wind. We (some forum members) spent many hours of discussion last year and the year prior sorting this out. The problem is that many, most all, sailing instructional material for beginners incorrectly depicts "close-hauled" as a point of sail--which it is not.

 

[agprice22]

I was taught Beat too, but ASA teaches close hauled.
My dad taught me: beat into the wind, reach across it, run away from it...