Balancing the boat with additional ballast trim

[Bfranchini]

In all my readings about sailing, most skippers seem to prefer a boat that is heavier in the stern, allegedly this increases speed and maneuvrability as well as stability. This seems to be confirmed by the fact that, having moved my two batteries (120 lbs) under the v berth, she doesn't seem to point as well and is also more sluggish on a broad reach or run. Now, I could move them back under the cabin but then this would cause problems trailering since the tongue weight is already minimal.
For the moment my solution will be to place 3 X 20 liters (15 us gals) bladders of fresh water in the lazaret, this would be equivalent to abt 120 lbs (60 kg) and thus neutralize the weight forward. As the water gets used up it could be replenished with sea or lake water and restore the original weight.
Additionally, always following the idea of a heavier stern, I am considering adding sand bags in the bilge space under the cabin seats, perhaps a couple of hundred pounds, the sand could be disposed of during trailering and replaced when we are ready to put in again. We are beginning sailors ( though somewhat senior citizens) and my wife tends to panic if we overstep the 10 deg heeling angle resulting in limiting the amount of sailing we can do to winds of max 10 kts, perhaps this solution might keep the initial heel down and allow us to sail more often rather than sit in the cockpit waiting for Aeolus to calm down...
Any suggestions, ideas, discussions etc??
Thanks
Bill

 

[Justin_NSA]

Having owned a '92 26S, I think Roger balanced them out pretty well. Battery midship, crew aft. In Kansas, we used to sail her in much higher wind than that. IMHO, forget the extra weight. It's a water ballast Mac, they are tender. If healing makes you nervous, reef your mainsail, tighten up trim, add a traveler, but forget more weight. I'm 61. Humping more weight around in hopes of gaining stability does not excite me.

 

[justsomeguy]

Humping more weight around in hopes of gaining stability does not excite me.

Especially if you load and offload ballast every time you trailer to/from the water.
That'd get old pretty quick, I think.

 

[Sumner]

A traveler would help but trying to stay under 10 deg is really going to be hard and at that heel the boat moves (heels) on every little gust and to someone that doesn't like heeling then every little gust become frightening. I'd forget the weight ideas as I don't think they will make any difference. I've had my boat at all different weights and with the weight in different areas and haven't noticed much difference. The weight has helped pounding into heavier seas at times though.

Ruth was a non-swimmer and at first 12 deg was about the limit and later 14-15 was the limit. In hindsight I wish I would of tried to talk her into trying more at least once as once the boat is around 18 to 20 it really stiffens up and every little gust doesn't effect it much. Then if you can get the person to push past that and keep going in heavier wind or wind gusts and they see the worst the boat does is round-up they might finally become confident that the boat isn't going to get knocked down. I realize that this is asking a lot of some but if they can ever get to the point of trying it then sailing will be much more enjoyable for them.

On our recent Flaming Gorge trip we stayed out in really heavy wind and Dottie took the heeling and even the rounding up once with no fear but she also had a lot of trust in me knowing I've been doing this a little while. Not sure of your situation and how long you have been sailing but maybe if your wife would feel better with someone else then give that a try.

Good luck, and having someone that will go out with you is also worth making some sacrifices for,

Sumner
======================================================================
1300 miles to The Bahamas and Back in the Mac...
Endeavour 37 Mods...
MacGregor 26-S Mods...
Mac Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida, Bahamas

 

[centerline]

making the boat heavier will NOT make it sail better... trimming it properly will.
if you have trailering problems, its not the boat, but the trailer... move the axle back on the trailer and lighten and trim the boat and everything will be better in every way...

I am not sure why they built the trailers with the axle so close to the balance point, but its wrong.
even with me loading my boat with more gear and stuff than is reasonable, ahead of the axle, it was still tongue light and would want to sway a bit when towing above 60mph...
I moved the axle rearward as far as it would go (an additional 18inches) and it made all the difference... it tows well at any speed I want to drive...

as for sailing, I too have found my boat has a better balanced helm when it seems the stern is carrying more weight than the bow, but I think the rake of the mast has some influence on this, so with any particular boat of the same model and load placement, one may experience differences in its handling...

as for heeling angle, its a sailboat and thats what they do under sail... it something you either have to get use to, or just keep the sail stored and run the motor.

you can minimize the sail area and only sail in light winds, but the boat will be slow and sluggish and not nearly as much fun... but on the other hand, sailing with full sails in strong winds is not too much fun either. you can learn more from it than sailing in light winds, but it can be as much work for you trying to manage the boat as it is for the boat trying to do what you are asking it to do.... sail it hard when you can and learn the boat and its safe limits, as well as yours, then you will know what it right and what is wrong when you have "delicate" crew on board...

 

[walt]

In all my readings about sailing, most skippers seem to prefer a boat that is heavier in the stern, allegedly this increases speed and maneuvrability as well as stability. This seems to be confirmed by the fact that, having moved my two batteries (120 lbs) under the v berth, she doesn't seem to point as well and is also more sluggish on a broad reach or run.

Not at all what I have found in my experience.. How did you measure the "fact" that you lost pointing and speed? Was it a good comparison where only the battery location was changed, then check speed and pointing? Its much more common to keep the weight low on the stern. I can really feel this with my 15 foot dingy.

 

[Johnb]

After my wife took a sailing course with a lady skipper and all female students a lot of her fears went away. That idea may not please everyone but it worked.

There has been some good advice above especially in regard to balancing trailers and sailing. In general adding weight at the ends of a boat just increases its for and aft moment of inertia and is counter productive. The message here is trim by moving the weight you have to have, not by adding weight, and keep it low and in the center of the boat to whatever extent possible.

In a dinghy, sometimes the crew may move forward a little to keep her fore and aft level and increase water line length, thereby increasing hull speed, but they will not separate in the fore and aft direction because that increases angular momentum.

 

[Bfranchini]

Thanks for all your replies
Concerning the weight distribution, I still think. I'm a little too bow heavy, in fact my depth finder has stopped working consistently (transponder epoxied to the bottom of the lazaret) which Ellis me that either I have a defective transponder or the water contact with the hull is inconsistent. To answer Walt, I don't have exact measurements but I keep track of my speed and wind strength and on a run with about 10 knot wind the boat was not performing as when the battery was mounted in the galley. Adding that now I have 2 batteries. I have owned this boat for two years now and I am starting to get the feel of her.
But this could be due to other reasons not excluding erroneous impressions... I accept all your suggestions. I will not add additional dry ballast with the exception of storing more water in the lazaret, that's easy to dump if I doesn't perform as expected. Just as an experiment.
Concerning the heeling and my wife's fears all your advice is great and it sums up in taking small steps. I sympathize with Sumner who seems to have experienced the same problem. I will add a traveler and I have already modified the rudder as per all your suggestions in previous posts.
Thanks to all for the great advice
Bill

 

[walt]

Man.. I just dont think I could hardly measure a difference in reaching or pointing speed just by moving batteries from the sink to the forward berth. Regarding the water line, for a 23.5 foot water line with a 45 degree bow angle like these boats have, moving the water line by a whole inch vertical only changes the theoretical hull speed by .0069 knots (1/145 knots - way lower than the resolution I can either measure or perceive). Good choice to check other things and not add weight as this just increases the power required to get up to theoretical hull speed. Curious if you have a picture of where your stern is when the boat is just sitting in the water. It would seem to me that having the bottom transition at the stern of the boat right at water level would be best for maximizing length of water line but not dragging along water in the process. .

 

[Bfranchini]

Walt, You are probably right and I bow to superior experience, after all that is what this group is for. I will take a picture of the boat without the crew on board and you can judge and perhaps provide some advice. I still feel that shifting 120 lbs forward has affected some of the handling but it could be just a perception due to weather, currents and an infinite number of variables including a very green skipper

 

[BudGates]

Walt, You are probably right and I bow to superior experience, after all that is what this group is for. I will take a picture of the boat without the crew on board and you can judge and perhaps provide some advice. I still feel that shifting 120 lbs forward has affected some of the handling but it could be just a perception due to weather, currents and an infinite number of variables including a very green skipper

A picture with the crew aboard would be more useful than one without since that's the condition you have when sailing.

 

[walt]

Yep... I was just curious to compare to my boat since I have that transom shot. These are not racing boats but they are not slow boats either. I really dont have anything to complain about with the speed of this boat (except in very light wind where my 110 jib doesnt compete with a large deck sweeper). So for comparison, the picture below is of my transom just sitting in a slip. When I sail or motor, the sail lift causes the front of the boat to squat a little and the back end to rise.. I can tell this because in the slip my cockpit doesnt completely drain but as soon as I motor or sail it does.

Edit.. the cockpit drain on the 26S is to the rear. My aft end pretty much only has the outboard back there. The Laz stores a bunch of junk but nothing very heavy. If the cockpit drains when motoring, that actually means the transom became LOWER or the bow raised since the drain is located aft.. Not what I said above.

 

[Bfranchini]

Well, since the wind seems to have totally migrated south I'll run down to the marina tomorrow and take a few shots including the transom. I too noticed that the drain can be used as a level, in Egret at rest the water tends to pool a little, I'll bring a level next time. Of course this assumes that the cockpit floor is level with the horizon when the boat is on an even keel...

 

[Freedom77]

In my experience I have found that placing weight low and close to the keel works best. Acts as ballast. i.e. battery under seat, ice chest under dinette, ground tackle under V-berth... When you get 3 or 4 people in the cockpit, fuel tank, engine hanging off the stern etc. That's a lot of weight in the stern and creates drag. When, ancient history, I used to race long distances, I would store engine in the cabin next to the keel trunk. A little inconvenient but it made a difference. As far as being level, waterline stripe is a good indicator. You also might take note of how close you come into the wind before you start to luff. Might need to adjust headsail closer to centerline, narrow slot between jib and mast. Hardware$$$$

 

[Joe]

In all my readings about sailing, most skippers seem to prefer a boat that is heavier in the stern, allegedly this increases speed and maneuvrability as well as stability.

Can you cite any particulars..... where did you find these testimonials? I've read a lot of sailing tomes and don't remember a consensus on moving ballast aft for increased speed, handling and stability. Maybe I've missed something.

 

[Tsatzsue]

I agree with Centerline on the trailer. WTF were they thinking about. Not galvanized to boot. I load the cooler and anything else that I can at the ramp. Motor stays on the boat.
I also agree with Justin. The boats seem to be pretty well balanced out. I keep my ground tackle under the cockpit seat and load the cooler in there as well. Loaded from the cabin side and as close to the center as possible. I removed the hardware so the whole cover comes off the cooler. This allows easy access and allows me to carry a big cooler. Batteries in the stock location. Tool box next to the porta - potti. I do need to put a boat box together that is lighter. Water stored on the port side under the seat next to the dinette storage.
Under a good beam reach at 15- 20 knots I can feel the hull coming out and just a hint of planning if there is a little chop. Feels great! Even with a few people in the cockpit.

 

[Meriachee]

For what it's worth, downwind, with the keel fully raised we always found that dispatching somebody to the bow, or at least to cover the front hatch was sufficient change to get the transom out of the water, and give a much cleaner flow over the hull. The results spoke for themselves on Wednesday nights, at least until others figured it out.
Clean water flow trumps geometry every time.

 

[BudGates]

I am not sure why they built the trailers with the axle so close to the balance point, but its wrong.
even with me loading my boat with more gear and stuff than is reasonable, ahead of the axle, it was still tongue light and would want to sway a bit when towing above 60mph...

I'm sure Macgregor didn't build the trailers. They most likely purchased a generic boat trailer and had it modified to fit the Mac hull with no regard for balance except to insure that the tongue doesn't fly up in the air when released from the tow vehicle. With my V-222 I would remove the outboard and attach it to the trailer just below the bow. That was a pain in the neck but gave enough tongue weight for towing.

 

[walt]

I just towed my 26S about 700 miles with that stock single axle trailer (mostly stock.. I have 15 inch rims which allows tires with higher load ratings). Two batteries way up forward, a spare tire forward on the trailer and the outboard on the back. All the supplies for the trip were in the back of the truck. If you get the boat located on the trailer where its supposed to be (ie, not sitting back some inches from the forward stop) I find it tows nicely even well past 65 mph. If you look in the manual, it gives a max limit for that trailer of about 2700 pounds or something like that which is a pretty bare boat. And with the single axle you have to be more careful about balance. But when I had to buy new tires this spring and work on the hubs.. I had half the cost and work to do. That was the first salt water dipping I have done.. tried to wash the trailer well after but I think I can see some corrosion just from that one time in salt water.

Meriachi, a little off topic but interesting that you raced with the CB raised for downwind. Ive been messing with that but found you cant get the CB to drop fast enough when heading back upwind and just seconds delay seems to matter in a race. Im thinking about adding a little more weight to my CB - maybe 10 more pounds - just to get it to drop faster. I sort of looked at the CB pivot point recently and might also try some very thin washers (some sort of plastic) on each side of the CB pivot to allow it so drop easier..

 

[Meriachee]

I'm sure Macgregor didn't build the trailers.

Did so.