Forestay troubles - New 23.5 owner

fred1diver · Jul 17, 2016

loosen your backstay, I have the same problem on mine, just dont forget to tighten it afterwards

fred1diver · Jul 17, 2016

that would work

Tony_Furst · Jul 17, 2016

Download a copy of the 23.5 owners manual from here, you can find it under the owner modifications section. There is a really good description of how to raise and lower the mast. I leave my shrouds disconnected until my mast is vertical and my forestay/furler is pinned.

Rick Webb · Jul 17, 2016

It is easier to loosen the forestay than the shrouds. Unless you have a furler which I think is more trouble than it is worth on this boat.

Crazy Dave Condon · Jul 18, 2016

Stackwalker;

I am a retired dealer who was very much instrumental with the 23.5. I think it is now time you talk with the expert on this o ne. Send me a private email with location and phone and a long discussion is in order. Do not give out personal contact information on this small boat forum but only thru the private message. I will then respond. since you do not know me, guys speak up here so he knows I am legit.

crazy dave condon

GGordonWoody · Jul 18, 2016

TRUE DAT! DO WHAT HE SAY! Dave is the godfather of this boat. The PO to the PO to the PO (previous owners) of my H23.5 purchased from Dave. I have the papers to prove it. WE are very fortunate to have this forum, and Dave is a treasure of information, especially on the H23.5!

GGordonWoody · Jul 18, 2016

Hey Stackwalker - welcome! It feels great not being the new kid anymore. This is a great forum and you will get the help you need.

Very sorry to hear your story. I know it must be painful. We just stepped our H23.5 mast for the first time last week. Is it possible some of this might be, as Jack Daw (forum action hero) says, "operator error". But please don't misunderstand. You will learn everyone here is your friend and will shower you with advice and offers to help. If we lived closer, we would be over to help. Or just sit in your boat and drink. With you, of course. Drink with you.

Ok, never ever remove the baby stays until after you connect the forestay and get some tension on the shrouds. If the baby stays bind, lower the mast and run them out. Lesson learned, do not repeat.

The rudder has a friction bolt with a large wing nut, and an up haul that can be tied. But the boats are over 20 years old now, so we remove the rudder when trailering - just to avoid problems from Pennsyltuckey potholes (by the way, its best part of Pennsylvania - lol). If none of the above is the right answer, get a package of motorcycle straps and lash the thing up to itself (not the boat!).

The T-bolts are notorious for binding and bending if you don't check and straighten them while raising. Jack Daw says tape the shrouds to the life lines. Excellent. I read that that a bungee from the top of one turnbuckle to the other, over the life line, also works to keep them straight up. That's what we did. I think that was from Dave - thanks man! The top of the shrouds must remain seated correctly in their slots during the raising process. This includes the forestay. Especially the forestay. The forum has posts about misconnected forestays at the mast crashing down under sail.

The manual advises placing the rubber plugs in mast slots to keep the shrouds from falling out during mast lowering. This may also help to keep them oriented correctly during raising. I'm honestly not sure because ours were mostly missing. Or invisible. We just went very slowly, took breaks between heaves, and checked and straightened all the stays at the top and bottom.

The forestay will not reach if the mast isn't fully forward, so if necessary, lower the mast and open the shroud turnbuckles. We backed them out wide open (only about one diameter's worth of threads showing). After raising, the forestay actually sagged a bit, and it was connected to the forward most eye. We centered the mast afterward (it was dead on pretty much anyway). We got the shrouds fairly tight (not quite guitar string tight, but more like string bass tight), and the forestay tightened up. We bungeed up the turnbuckles to keep them straight, and had someone below to keep them that way. I didn't need the boots, but I added them anyway because they look cool. I lifted them up above the bungee to get them out of the way (I actually cut them from 1 ft. sections of 3/4" pvc. - damn fine job too).

The baby stays are adjustable, so run them out as well if they are binding, then try again. But leave at least one diameter worth of thread connected!

If you just remarked to yourself, "This jack weed was no help.", then maybe your mast has had some surgery? Or maybe your stays aren't to factory specs? Have the stanchions or bow pulpit been replaced? All impossible to tell, I know. But not so, you can post your measurements here and someone will respond.

One of the mistakes we made was tilting the gin pole forward 10°, rather than aft 10°. A quick look at the diagrams in the manual might cause you to think this is correct (ahem). I doubt any (other) H23.5 newbies have tried this, but it might probably lead to some interference by the pole as the mast neared the fully raised position.

Well, welcome aboard and good luck. We'll help you get this worked out.

Doug J · Jul 19, 2016

GGordonWoody said:
The T-bolts are notorious for binding and bending if you don't check and straighten them while raising. Jack Daw says tape the shrouds to the life lines. Excellent. I read that that a bungee from the top of one turnbuckle to the other, over the life line, also works to keep them straight up. That's what we did. I think that was from Dave - thanks man! The top of the shrouds must remain seated correctly in their slots during the raising process. This includes the forestay. Especially the forestay. The forum has posts about misconnected forestays at the mast crashing down under sail.

The manual advises placing the rubber plugs in mast slots to keep the shrouds from falling out during mast lowering. This may also help to keep them oriented correctly during raising. I'm honestly not sure because ours were mostly missing. Or invisible. We just went very slowly, took breaks between heaves, and checked and straightened all the stays at the top and bottom.

I would recommend getting the T-Bolt "Rubber Retaining Plugs". The SBO store says they are not available anymore. But you can get them from Rigrite.
http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/SparParts/Tangs-complete/T-Ball_Backing_Plates.htm

The SBO store does have those retaining flap things. I haven't seen or tried them, they might work well. But I think the "Rubber Retaing Plugs" are likely a better way to go. The flaps/tabs can move, they swivel on a pop-rivet or screw. The rubber plugs stay put.

The plugs are ridiculously expensive for what they are; $10, plus $15 shipping. I guess they can basically charge whatever they want, as they apparently are getting hard to find. When I got my 94' H26 there were a few missing. And the ones that were there were hardened and cracked from age. One was even a partial because a piece broke off. I realized how important they are to make sure the T-bolts do not pop out. To me they are an absolute necessity.

Karyon · Jul 19, 2016

Those plugs might be a great Idea, did they come originally with the boats? But I'm not liking the price, specially for us Canucks , that will be darn near $100. for what ?

Doug J · Jul 19, 2016

Yes, it's my understanding they were OEM. How much is safety worth to you? If you currently are missing these, or are not using another method, I'd say you're taking a risk. At $9 each, I think I paid $69 for six of them. I checked with Rigrite today to be sure they still had them - they do, but now they are $10 US. Still $15 for shipping. Such a deal... not... but hey, I feel better having them.

sesmith · Jul 19, 2016

We used to have a 23.5. Our current boat is also trailerable and uses a similar mast raising system.

My take on it, fwiw. The stopper plugs are only to keep the t-bolt fitting from coming out when there is no tension on them. As soon as you start to raise the mast, there is tension on it, so... all I have ever used on both boats is a couple of pieces of electrical tape over the top of the slot in the mast and snug against the top of the t-bolt. (Edit: To keep tension on it, bungee the furler drum to the end of the gin pole.)

Loosen up your shroud turn buckles a couple of turns to make it easier to pin the forestay. Then adjust and tighten the rig when up. Do not disconnect the baby stays until the rig is secure (also don't forget you have them when you unstep the mast at a later date!). As you already found out, pay attention to the turnbuckles when raising so you don't bend them (carry a couple of spares). Once your rig is properly tensioned, and you've had a chance to fine tune it on the water, just remember, a couple or 3 turns to loosen before you drop it, and the same number to tighten it up next time you raise it.

If you have a furler (and it really is nice to have one on that boat), inspect your forestay very carefully up near the top of the furler. The swaged connection at the cable may be hidden by the furler, and without careful inspection you may not notice fraying of the cable. We didn't, and our mast came down with a gust (with a ferry bearing down on us). Luckily, the mast, boat, and we survived to learn that lesson. The sail loft that replaced our rigging, and saved our vacation that year, put a toggle at the top of the forestay to take the stress off the end of the cable (caused by the frequent stepping and unstepping of the mast on these boats). Well worth doing if you ever replace the forestay.

Have fun with it. It's a fun boat to sail and will likely be a little more exciting to sail than your Bristol.

GGordonWoody · Jul 19, 2016

sesmith said:
The swaged connection at the cable may be hidden by the furler, and without careful inspection you may not notice fraying of the cable. We didn't, and our mast came down with a gust (with a ferry bearing down on us).

I didn't even think about what was under all that laundry up there until I read your post. Fortunately, the CDI furler manual scared me enough to keep me from opening the jib. It is full of warnings about your mast crashing down on you by spinning open the forestay turnbuckle. I'm hoping that maybe I can hook up the jib halyard as a safety line, then unwrap the sail and try to have a look. Do you know if it is possible to get the foil off to inspect the cable?

I concur about the mast raising. The H23.5 shrouds and forestay don't participate in the mast raising ceremony at all, only the baby stays (bridles) and the gin pole hardware. But keep your boat level across the beam to avoid excess strain on those short cables. I was surprised there was no mention of this in the manual.

sesmith · Jul 20, 2016

GGordonWoody said:
Fortunately, the CDI furler manual scared me enough to keep me from opening the jib. It is full of warnings about your mast crashing down on you by spinning open the forestay turnbuckle. I'm hoping that maybe I can hook up the jib halyard as a safety line, then unwrap the sail and try to have a look. Do you know if it is possible to get the foil off to inspect the cable?

No worries, so long as the turnbuckle is secured with split rings, cotter pins, whatever (personally, I use a short length of 1/16" stainless welding rod bent into a "C" to secure turnbuckles on our boat). I believe you can lift the drum up enough on a CDI furler to see the turnbuckle. Concerning the forestay, the part that will have a problem is directly below the upper swaged fitting, so I doubt you need to disassemble the whole thing to see it.

isaksp00 · Jul 20, 2016

I am not familiar with the CDI, but the Harken has a collar that clamps to the foil, holding it up to the proper level. I can loosen the screws on that clamp letting it lower about 3 or 4 inches, which is enough to see the swaged fitting (I happen to have added a Hayn removable eye, rather than swaged, but that is not relevant). Maybe the CDI foil (plastic, I think?) can be similarly lowered.

Crazy Dave Condon · Jul 20, 2016

Stack walker;
There are no dumb questions and all of us are here to help you which is why this forum is great. Feel free any time to contact me sir.

Dave Condon

Crazy Dave Condon · Jul 21, 2016

Like I have told some folks, I wrote the book on this mast raising. Feel free to contact me but did not see your email. I will email uyou

Crazy Dave Condon · Jul 21, 2016

sent you a private email with contact information