Who is in Charge

Maine Sail · Jun 11, 2016

If you look up the California case regarding Bismark Dinius, you'll find that the person holding the tiller, though not technically the captain or owner of the boat, was the one charged.

Kermit · Jun 11, 2016

Here's my take. It seems the rules about who's driving are the same as an automobile. The person driving is the person responsible at that moment. If you're a passenger in the car you own while your mother-in-law is driving and she causes a wreck, she is the one charged. (In her mind it'll always be your fault for marrying her daughter but that's a whole nother story.) I would imagine that if your young grandsons are too young to be held responsible then the powers that be would come after you. That's different from what we learned in ASA 101. We learned that the skipper is ultimately responsible for the safety of all aboard even if he is not driving at the time. But it seems law enforcement and judges feel quite differently.

p.s. I am not a lawyer and don't play one on TV. I don't even like what I have come to believe is true. That's just how it appears to me.

Don S/V ILLusion · Jun 11, 2016

If you want an answer to a question of philosophy, you have come to the right place.

Conversely, if you want to know how to properly interpret a question of law or liability, you might want to ask elsewhere like a lawyer who understand marine or maritime law.

Stu Jackson · Jun 11, 2016

Knuttle said:
In this case who is driving the sailboat?

The person at the tiller would seem to be in direct responsibility of the, uhm, direction of the boat. Whether they follow your directions as to where the tiller and, therefore, the boat should go, may be another story.

Then, of course, there are the legal implication brought up by MS and Kermit, which may also have serious legal implications by setting (horrible) precedent.

The bigger question is how Kermit's father-in-law feels about him marrying his daughter.

Stu Jackson · Jun 11, 2016

Knuttle said:
In this case who is driving the sailboat?

The person at the tiller would seem to be in direct responsibility of the. uhm, direction of the boat. Whether they follow your directions as to where the tiller and, therefore, the boat should go, may be another story.

Then, of course, there are the legal implication brought up by MS and Kermit, which may also have serious legal implications by setting (horrible) precedent.

The bigger question is how Kermit's father-in-law feels about him marrying his daughter.

You may also want to discuss the implications of a skipper/captain of the boat vs. the helmsperson responsibilities with the children.

Stu Jackson · Jun 11, 2016

Knuttle said:
Do you let underage sailors learn to handle the boat or do you follow the law and wait until they are 21.

Not sure I follow. Do you mean that one can't drive a boat until they're 21?

Knuttle said:
a young person at the helm of a 40 footer and boat that can be single handed.

There are lots of 40 foot boats being singlehanded.

Roland5048 · Jun 11, 2016

If one cannot legally enforce or enter into a binding contract with a minor then it could be assumed, I would think, that one cannot abdicate his or her responsibility for the boat and crew to a minor, either. Now, let's say, for argument's sake, that experienced minor child, with permission, takes his girlfriend out for a sail, on a nice day, in the lake and something happens. Who, then, would be held responsible? Is this cut and dry? Is it a depends on ... situation?
Now, if my girlfriend and I, both waaay over the age 21, are sailing in my boat, as we have done for many years, and I hand the helm over to her while I go below and something happens, while I would not personally hold her responsible, who would be legally liable? Me, her, or both?
There has to be some lawyers on this forum that could chime in and shed some light.

LeoLambert310 · Jun 12, 2016

what would happen if you used the autopilot and gone forward or the head with someone at the helm but not in control? Is auto at fault and be fined?

Norden Guy · Jun 13, 2016

On a navy vessel (sail or power) the captain is in charge but seldom touches the wheel.

Stu Jackson · Jun 13, 2016

Roland5048 said:
Now, if my girlfriend and I, both waaay over the age 21, are sailing in my boat, as we have done for many years, and I hand the helm over to her while I go below and something happens, while I would not personally hold her responsible, who would be legally liable? Me, her, or both?
There has to be some lawyers on this forum that could chime in and shed some light.

Suggest you read reply #2

centerline · Jun 13, 2016

Knuttle said:
We have recently returned to NC. When my daughters were young under 10, I would frequently let them hold the tiller of our 21 foot sailboat, (no motor) while I adjusted the sails, got the boat ready to bring it into, or leaving the dock. As the direction of the boat needed slight changes I would tell them exactly what to do with the tiller. ( I am completely capable of sailing the boat by myself and in this situation, with out the child, I would lash the tiller.)

In this case who is driving the sailboat?

I would like to understand "Driver" in this situation. ie is the driver of a small sailboat that is not under power, the person at the tiller or the person in command of the boat?

We are looking at a similar situation with my young grandsons and I would like to know.

I believe, and would act accordingly, in the situation you describe, the parent or legal guardian of the under age person, at the time of the incident will be held liable for the under age persons actions....

this may not be so in every state, but it is the law here in oregon....

under this law, if it were in oregon and a man/woman allowed his kid to go out with granddad (who may or may not be irresponsible to allow the kid at the wheel) and something were to happen while the kid was at the helm and grandpa was adjusting sails or making lunch or snoozing or using the head, ect......
ultimately, the man/woman would be legally responsible for the damaged cause to someone elses property for the kids action. no matter if grandpa lives or dies in the accident.

BUT... what will come into play is, Its grandpas boat, so he will be the first named in the lawsuit, and the kids parents will be named second because it was their kid driving and grandpa may say it wasnt his fault.... so now, in addition to the lawsuit brought on by the offended party, it will become a family thing...... but the damages WILL be awarded to the offended party, so it doesnt really matter...
so a person needs to think and take the action necessary to prevent/minimize everyones risk when doing anything, and handing the wheel off to a minor doesnt do this...

this of course is a hypothetical scenario, and several others come to mind, but I think isnt not too far from the way the lawsuit would go...... because if grandpa just took the blame like he should, and paid the damages, there wouldnt be a lawsuit.

the opposite scenario is where the other party is at fault and is suing you anyway, because.... the kid was at the wheel, or you look rich, or because they can..... its an endless guessing game as to what could, should, or might happen in an accident, or what could, should, or might happen in a courtroom because of it.... no matter who is the one actually responsible.

it isnt a cut and dried law that we can predict the outcome of, because there are too many variables that will surround the circumstances of the incident that will sway the judge/jury one way or another...

Roland5048 · Jun 13, 2016

Kermit said:
That's different from what we learned in ASA 101. We learned that the skipper is ultimately responsible for the safety of all aboard even if he is not driving at the time.

I am of the same thought on this as Kermit. Just thought I would throw that scenario out there. What we learned and how the courts interpret things could be another whole story.

centerline · Jun 13, 2016

Roland5048 said:
Now, if my girlfriend and I, both waaay over the age 21, are sailing in my boat, as we have done for many years, and I hand the helm over to her while I go below and something happens, while I would not personally hold her responsible, who would be legally liable? Me, her, or both?

both... there can be many people named in the same lawsuit, those that are found to be innocent of any wrong doing will eventually be excused, the guilty will still carry the burden to make reasonable restitution.... but in the case where you both have a hand in the management of the boat at the moment, there will be no excusing....

Stu Jackson · Jun 13, 2016

centerline said:
those that are found to be innocent of any wrong doing will be excused, the guilty will still carry the burden to make reasonable restitution....

After the Dinius case, that conclusion is far from secure.

centerline · Jun 13, 2016

Stu Jackson said:
After the Dinius case, that conclusion is far from secure.

fully agreed Stu, and that was exactly my point here "it isnt a cut and dried law that we can predict the outcome of, because there are too many variables that will surround the circumstances of the incident that will sway the judge/jury one way or another"...

we cant tell what is said, how its said, who its said to, and/or who in the position of power gets pissed off at someone for saying it.... or it could be some other "variable" entirely, but it cant always be predicted.

and the Dinius case was unusual in a few respects, one of which we all know the legal system kinda likes to stick together and ignore the facts when one of their own is in jeopardy....

Ron20324 · Jun 13, 2016

Two thoughts on this.. A legally licensed lawyer probably will not let it be known. If he responds to threads, lest his advice be taken as "the law" on the matter, and make him liable for his "opinion" input. /// There is a word that MAY be in the legal mumbo-jumbo, be it govenmental or (For instance) BOAT U.S. web site, and that is "the person in COMMAND" of the boat. Not necessarily the helmperson. That means he/she has the say as to where and how the boat will go. As in: "I'm not allowed to run the train , the whistle I can't blow. I'm not allowed to say how fast or slow the train can go. The whistle I can't toot, nor to ring the bell, but let the damn train jump the track and see who catches hell." As I tell my crews my boat motto is, "The boat don't hit nothin', and nothinin' hits the boat."

Roland5048 · Jun 13, 2016

Stu Jackson said:
After the Dinius case, that conclusion is far from secure.

After having just read several articles about this case I'm left speechless and scratching my head.