wufi ... I'll always inject economics and the relationship with politics in a sailing discussion when I can (usually when the topics are opened by someone). I'd also love to sail on The Bay someday!
Do we really need more boaters?
- Thread starter Daveinet
- Start date
Let's put the OP's comments into geographic perspective. Chain O Lakes is a beautiful area, near Chicago, for boating in concept. The problem is that on weekends, you can walk across the lakes from boat to boat, as they wander somewhat aimlessly up and down stream. It's like being on the I5 in LA at rush hour, with boats weaving in and out in very narrow channels. In addition, you have a relatively short season. Add to that the cost of slips, as he described and I can see why he would want to see fewer boaters.
I was fortunate that when I got back into sailing, I could head to Lake Michigan and get away from the crowds. I'm back to being with people who enjoy sailing and each other. That's what we need more of.
I was fortunate that when I got back into sailing, I could head to Lake Michigan and get away from the crowds. I'm back to being with people who enjoy sailing and each other. That's what we need more of.
I tend to agree, overall, that there are already "too many boaters" in a lot of the densely populated areas. I can only speak from my very limited personal experience in the coastal Los Angeles area. For us, in our area, it's certainly not a "traffic" situation, but a storage/slip availability problem.
The really sad part is that in my marina, which has roughly 60 slips, only perhaps 10 or 12 boats are ever sailed (or motored). Of those, there are maybe half as many that are regularly sailed, including mine (and I don't get out as much as I'd like to!). The remaining 50 boats are either live-aboards who never shift out of their slip, or are owned by truly absentee owners who pay the slip dues, but never even visit the marina. We bought our boat from such an owner, who had sailed it a grand total of twice in the year-plus that they owned it.
Our starboard neighbor (a small Pearson, I believe it is, of late '60s vintage), for example, I have never met - not even one time! - in our two years of residence there. He/she has never even been down to their boat, I can tell because the same little cooler has been precariously balanced on the edge of the seat in the cockpit for 2 years now. I feel sad for the boat and would love to turn the hose on it to wash it down, to reduce the ugliness, but God only knows what the owner would think (and whether or not it leaks, etc.), and since I've never met him, I don't dare do it.
The next guy over from him has been down to the marina twice since he moved a gigantic Boston Whaler sport fisher with two giant outboards, one of which suffered massive corrosion issues that manifested slowly over time. (Recently I spied an automotive jumper cable clamped underwater to one of the skegs!) Yet I get to contend with the massive overhang and two sharp Mercury outboards every time I navigate out of my slip.
My point is that even though these guys (presumably) pay their rent, they simply take up space that other folks might otherwise rent out. This of course contributes to the scarcity of available slips and impacts the "free market pricing" in that sense. But, if they are paying their slip dues on-time, it's difficult to make any case against them ... it's up to them whether they are effectively flushing their money down the drain paying for something they never use ... it's a free country, right? As Scott mentioned, when the financial heat is on, it is us on the lower end of the wealth range who are forced out, because the $300/month to the rich guy is nothing to him and he can continue to claim to be a sailor since he owns a boat.
I know that circumstances can conspire to prevent people from using their boats regularly, I deal with that myself. In our case, what could be a more lively marina is instead a fairly sleepy faux floating graveyard of semi-abandoned boats left to deteriorate.
We're considering moving the boat to San Pedro, or possibly Marina del Rey or even Oxnard / Ventura, depending on where we end up living in a couple of years. Not sure what this situation is like in other marinas in these places ...
The really sad part is that in my marina, which has roughly 60 slips, only perhaps 10 or 12 boats are ever sailed (or motored). Of those, there are maybe half as many that are regularly sailed, including mine (and I don't get out as much as I'd like to!). The remaining 50 boats are either live-aboards who never shift out of their slip, or are owned by truly absentee owners who pay the slip dues, but never even visit the marina. We bought our boat from such an owner, who had sailed it a grand total of twice in the year-plus that they owned it.
Our starboard neighbor (a small Pearson, I believe it is, of late '60s vintage), for example, I have never met - not even one time! - in our two years of residence there. He/she has never even been down to their boat, I can tell because the same little cooler has been precariously balanced on the edge of the seat in the cockpit for 2 years now. I feel sad for the boat and would love to turn the hose on it to wash it down, to reduce the ugliness, but God only knows what the owner would think (and whether or not it leaks, etc.), and since I've never met him, I don't dare do it.
The next guy over from him has been down to the marina twice since he moved a gigantic Boston Whaler sport fisher with two giant outboards, one of which suffered massive corrosion issues that manifested slowly over time. (Recently I spied an automotive jumper cable clamped underwater to one of the skegs!) Yet I get to contend with the massive overhang and two sharp Mercury outboards every time I navigate out of my slip.
My point is that even though these guys (presumably) pay their rent, they simply take up space that other folks might otherwise rent out. This of course contributes to the scarcity of available slips and impacts the "free market pricing" in that sense. But, if they are paying their slip dues on-time, it's difficult to make any case against them ... it's up to them whether they are effectively flushing their money down the drain paying for something they never use ... it's a free country, right? As Scott mentioned, when the financial heat is on, it is us on the lower end of the wealth range who are forced out, because the $300/month to the rich guy is nothing to him and he can continue to claim to be a sailor since he owns a boat.
I know that circumstances can conspire to prevent people from using their boats regularly, I deal with that myself. In our case, what could be a more lively marina is instead a fairly sleepy faux floating graveyard of semi-abandoned boats left to deteriorate.
We're considering moving the boat to San Pedro, or possibly Marina del Rey or even Oxnard / Ventura, depending on where we end up living in a couple of years. Not sure what this situation is like in other marinas in these places ...
National Geographic. In a short time span there was Robin and the Dove, "Climbing Half Dome the Hard Way," the RA expeditions, and the first US expedition up Everest. Other cool stuff, too numerous to recall.
Self-taught and books. Books are great. One 2-hour skiing lesson.
That was really the gist of my post. I'm not complaining about the traffic. Even sailing on the Chain, I don't have a problem with the boats on the water, it is more of an observation of the storage limitations. I could go to Lake Michigan, where there is plenty of open water, but the slip prices are crazy. There is also waiting lists in most marinas. The law of supply and demand suggest that the demand is too high. Maybe I am a victim of me location, but that is my observation.
wasn't it Sir Edmund Hillary the first one to conquered Mt Everest......... i think i remember that news flash
Really? There seems to be available slips at North Point Marina in Winthrop Harbor. That would be an excellent location and a 30' slip is just $2,120 with electric and I presume water. That sounds like a bargain to me. They offer discount for early payment, too.
Urban locations for Chicago non-resident are available for just $2,840 for a 30' stall in Jackson outer, just $1,585 for a star dock (a really great way to go) and $1,204 for a mooring. If you want to go upscale, try 31st St Harbor at just $3,210 for a 27' slip w/ power. There may be waiting list for the high-desirable locations in Chicago, but there is nothing wrong with Jackson Harbor or 31st St. If you are resident, prices are even better.
All of these choices appear to be highly affordable.
Scott, I take it that those prices are for "the season" right? How long is that exactly (roughly speaking)? Out West here, where the coast and marinas never freeze over, we pay on a monthly basis. Where I am slipped, the rate is just about $10 per foot, per month ... that is about as cheap as it gets in Los Angeles/OC.
Yes, that is for the season. In Chicago, on Lake Michigan, a season is just 6 months - considering May thru October. In May, even June, it is almost like winter to be on the water. Trying to extend a season into November would be near-suicidal. The outer-limits of our season in New Jersey might be April through November, with early April and late November being a real stretch.
BTW marke14, your rates seem pretty low to me. A yearly slip rental would be about $3,600 for me. I spend close to $4,000 for a season and winter storage, with all of the services that accompany the transfers.
What it comes down to ... if there are too many boats that aren't being used and a significant waiting list, then the marina is mis-managed by under charging. This condition tells me that the customers have money to burn (slips are so cheap that they don't care about the cost) and there are people on the waiting list who would gladly pay more to have a slip.
Where there are under-utilized marinas, the slip fees may be too high. Of course when there are quasi-governmental agencies running a marina, there are other factors which control the slip fees. Mostly political factors, not economical. Where I used to keep my boat on Lake Hopatcong, the County-run marina under-charges by about half what they should be charging, according to the market demand. There are way too many under-used boats and long waiting lists. This infuriates the private marinas because they are undercut by a government agency that doesn't pay taxes and doesn't care about revenues because the operation is supported by tax payers. Who ever said that government should compete against private enterprise? The same goes for municipal and county golf courses who undercut the private courses (who are open to the public). I know this sentiment goes against the grain of most people who are just looking for cheaper sources of recreation, but the government-run recreational outlets hurt private businesses when there is limited demand. When a private marina or golf course can't compete, and sells the property to a developer, who is to blame?
I also note that, generally speaking, the people who complain most about the cost of a $2,500 (or pick your low number) per season slip fee are the same people who complain when a marina owner sells his/her property to a developer/builder, where the builder can sell 1/2 million dollar condominiums all day and all night to customers who are more than happy to hand over their cash and sign the mortgage documents.
BTW marke14, your rates seem pretty low to me. A yearly slip rental would be about $3,600 for me. I spend close to $4,000 for a season and winter storage, with all of the services that accompany the transfers.
What it comes down to ... if there are too many boats that aren't being used and a significant waiting list, then the marina is mis-managed by under charging. This condition tells me that the customers have money to burn (slips are so cheap that they don't care about the cost) and there are people on the waiting list who would gladly pay more to have a slip.
Where there are under-utilized marinas, the slip fees may be too high. Of course when there are quasi-governmental agencies running a marina, there are other factors which control the slip fees. Mostly political factors, not economical. Where I used to keep my boat on Lake Hopatcong, the County-run marina under-charges by about half what they should be charging, according to the market demand. There are way too many under-used boats and long waiting lists. This infuriates the private marinas because they are undercut by a government agency that doesn't pay taxes and doesn't care about revenues because the operation is supported by tax payers. Who ever said that government should compete against private enterprise? The same goes for municipal and county golf courses who undercut the private courses (who are open to the public). I know this sentiment goes against the grain of most people who are just looking for cheaper sources of recreation, but the government-run recreational outlets hurt private businesses when there is limited demand. When a private marina or golf course can't compete, and sells the property to a developer, who is to blame?
I also note that, generally speaking, the people who complain most about the cost of a $2,500 (or pick your low number) per season slip fee are the same people who complain when a marina owner sells his/her property to a developer/builder, where the builder can sell 1/2 million dollar condominiums all day and all night to customers who are more than happy to hand over their cash and sign the mortgage documents.
this is the process by where the developers get the opportunity in the first place ...they themselves are on the government boards or have a cousin,aunt,uncle,or even a wife or parent sitting on the board hastening this process....what ever happened to insider trading or government for the people 1 percenters every last one of them ...
rant over
What you describe IS against the law and the law is enforced and prosecuted in most locations. Not that it doesn't happen, but there are plenty of watchdogs out there. Watchdogs have to do their job, though.
This happens in our County all the time. For many years we had a county commissioner (part time job) that worked for a local real-estate developer (full time job).
.
he should either resign one or the other...he should not be able to have it both ways that's like hiring the welding supply guy to
do the welding and consuming of the supplies ...leaving the bottle gas on and leaking over night burning the stick electrodes down 1 inch and reloading his stinger with a new rod and discarding the 1" used rod totally unacceptable....
She is no longer on the commission due to the constant drama she caused on commission votes that she should have recused herself on. The voters finally caught on, but her campaign was actually financed by the real estate investor she worked for. Why pay a lobbyist when you can pay the politician directly as valued employee. LOL
Lets not forget that the youth of America deserve the same sailing opportunities as we have enjoyed. Some comments smack of "I have mine so lets not share" concept. I taught my Grandson to sail at about 5 years of age and he is a good seaman.
As far as age; I am one of the oldest of our members but likely one of the fittest. Will launch for the summer/fall at Bodega Bay next week.
Chief
As far as age; I am one of the oldest of our members but likely one of the fittest. Will launch for the summer/fall at Bodega Bay next week.
Chief
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Never again will I grumble that our slip prices are too high at the local lake marina for me to ever want to rent one.
Wow, I pay that much just for 6 months during the winter. But then guys from up your way keep coming here during the winter, for our fine sailing, keeping the marina close to capacity. The price for my slip more than doubles for the summer because the people from So Cal have too much money.