New Marina Trend

[Sandy Stone]

Several independent well funded groups (water depth was ≈4000') searched/sampled the ocean bottom. They were looking for tars, oil, dead ocean etc. Found no impact!!

No impact? Hmmm... I suppose all the dolphin deaths, recent sea turtle deaths, and disappearing marshland due to dying grass are just coincidental? Just because there's no oil still lying out in plain view (like there was for years) doesn't mean the BP spill wasn't one of the worst environmental disasters ever, with ongoing effects we may not even be aware of.
And no, I'm not a closet environmentalist, I recently retired from ExxonMobil. After the Exxon Valdez thing they have strict procedures that I hope would have prevented a drilling blowout like with BP. That was a blatant example of putting profit and expenses ahead of prudence and industry standard practice, hoping that everything would be OK 'this one time'.

 

[JamesG161]

No impact? Hmmm...

BP just paid all Gulf Coast States for damages done! MS got $2Billion. LA got much more ≈$14B. The shore line damage was extensive in LA marshes. The seafood industry has had a clean bill of health for ≈5 years now. The big worry were Oyster beds. No detectable changes in over 3 years. Dophins are smart enough to leave a polluted area, sea turtles do age too.
It was a now dead, stupid supervisor, who was venting the pressure from what he thought was a "killed" well (it was a small casing leak that put formation trace methane (liquid at that pressure) that filled the cemented casing. The wire line company refused to do a State required cement bond log (needed to begin production), since there was 1000 psi at the well head. The dead guy told them DO IT! They refused and called for a company copter. 6 hours after they landed in Houma, LA.... BOOM. The ocean bottom preventers shut and held. The idiots who came to stop the fire, flooded the floating platform until it sank and bent the casing and damaged the preventers. Many factors. But the ocean floor for 100's of miles shows NO trace (BTW oil floats). It DID have a Impact!

My point is still Marina's, like municipal waste plants, can safely allow work.
Not wanting to highjack this thread.
Jim...

 

[wufibugs]

I thought Rich made an interesting point. Since the yard is where the EPA buck stops, it is up to them to police the activities that take place on their property. This applies whether the person doing the work is the owner himself, a qualified specialist, or the yard's favored provider. To ensure compliance, the yard could draft a list of requirements applicable to all. Failure to comply could be enforced by mandatory remediation at the servicer's expense. Commercial providers are probably insured, or at least bonded, so something similar can be required of DIY owners. When a legitimate issue arises, there always seems to be a rush to adopt the simplest and most draconian solution even when something less restrictive is available that is not terribly burdensome.

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

Don't confuse economic damages and environmental impact damages. The environmental impact assessments worth reading aren't and won't be completed for a while but it seems clear already that the economic impact(s) were more significant, particularly to BP.

As to the DIY boatyard dilemma, remember that in most places, the space required to haul and store boats is prime property being 'on' the water and the property taxes alone would choke most people if they had to pay it or the liability insurance for the inevitable fall off the ladder trick or kicking over the paint bucket.

 

[Gunni]

The big worry were Oyster beds. No detectable changes in over 3 years.

Yeah, no. The Pontchartrain oyster fishery, biggest in the nation, was pretty much destroyed by the BP spill, and it has never come back.

 

[jwing]

For a minute, forget about the knee-jerk anti regulation rants. Let's look at the issue from two perspectives: the non-project marina customers and the marina owner.

As a customer of a marina, I don't want to be subject to the noise, particulates, and fumes that are byproducts of boat painting. And I don't want the water in the marina to be polluted by the runoff.

If I was a marina owner, I would not want my customers to be subjected to the byproducts of boat painting and I would not want my marina to be mucked up by yahoo amateurs who don't know / don't care about taking care of my place, and take a long time to finish their projects.

Looking at the issue in that context, I don't mind having to find a place that is properly set up to do boat work, whether they allow me to supply my own labor or require me to hire theirs.

 

[rgranger]

.... Commercial providers are probably insured, or at least bonded, so something similar can be required of DIY owners. ....

Hmmmm .... so what you are suggesting is that the crafty entrepreneur should start offering a bond service (insurance) for the DIY boater that the marina operator could insist the DIY owner obtains BEFORE allowing any work to be performed. I see a cottage industry forming before my eyes.

 

[fstbttms]

Several independent well funded groups (water depth was ≈4000') searched/sampled the ocean bottom. They were looking for tars, oil, dead ocean etc. Found no impact!!
Web search I am sure, will reveal names of groups and their results.

See, the thing is; when you make some kind of outrageous claim, if you want it to be taken seriously, you would provide links or other proof to back up your statement. But you didn't and so we're left with nothing but the assumption that either you don't know what you're talking about or that you're a BP employee/shill.

In any event, it's not our job to do the legwork for you.

 

[wufibugs]

As noted earlier in the thread, there is a difference between a marina, which is a living environment, and a boatyard, which is akin to a manufacturing environment. Don, wouldn't the issue of liability insurance apply to everyone working in the yard, whether DIYer, employee, or outside vendor? And I agree, in many places boat yards are, or have become prime real estate though that does not necessarily mean they are taxed that way. CA has property tax increase limits generally tied to change in ownership. I'm guessing the few yards that allow DIY have been around for a long time.

 

[kloudie1]

Because the water temperature and amount of feed is very different from other places, things have a way of going back to equilibrium. http://dailycaller.com/2016/04/08/e...he-gulf-of-mexico-from-oil-spill-are-now-bad/
In the early 50's as a kid roaming miles of empty beaches near the Texas/Louisiana border, we had to keep a bucket of kerosene near the door to wash the tar/oil off our feet .. most of that was natural seepage from the marsh and gulf floor. Has the spill completely dissipated? No, but it is rapidly progressing there.. Not making light of the spill, but it is just not that big a deal here today.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

As always, good points on both sides. I always come down on the side of property owner's rights. If you are a marina owner and you don't want your customers to work on their own boat, you should have the right to place those restrictions, no explanation necessary. If you are a customer and you don't like it, then you can move. If you can't find any alternatives, that's your problem, not the marina property owner's. It always comes down to economics, and I always presume that the property owner both has the right, and is expected to do whatever is in their best economic interest. If I don't like it, then I should try walking a mile in their shoes!

 

[JamesG161]

My info was from local and national news and a report on causal effects. Believe what you want.

Yeah, no. The Pontchartrain oyster fishery, biggest in the nation, was pretty much destroyed by the BP spill, and it has never come back.

Well Katrina had is impact on that area too. They all thought open water Oysters were doomed. What my friends who do that for a living say (word of mouth only) the Oysters are good to eat. State Marine Resource people test and control the season and agree.

See, the thing is; when you make some kind of outrageous claim

I made no claim. But here is a link for you that need one.
http://response.restoration.noaa.go...ting-impacts-deepwater-horizon-oil-spill.html
Have fun on this off topic BTW we are at the 6 year anniversary of spill as of At 9:45 P.M. CDT on 20 April 2010.
Jim...

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

As noted earlier in the thread, there is a difference between a marina, which is a living environment, and a boatyard, which is akin to a manufacturing environment. Don, wouldn't the issue of liability insurance apply to everyone working in the yard, whether DIYer, employee, or outside vendor? And I agree, in many places boat yards are, or have become prime real estate though that does not necessarily mean they are taxed that way. CA has property tax increase limits generally tied to change in ownership. I'm guessing the few yards that allow DIY have been around for a long time.

Tax rates and applications vary frm state to state but one constant is true everywhere - a marina/boatyard ( whatever anyone chooses to call it) generally pays a huge property tax bill. Given most can almost always be subdivided and sold for a huge profit as building sites for residential property, they are disappearing a lot faster than they are being created.
As to liability, tort claims and environmental impact liability usually resides with the property owner. The government (EPA) doesn't care much who did it but rather from where it came. Most Federal statutes are written specifically to focus on property owners/operators so as to minimize any defense to liability by obviating the need to demonstrate responsibility and make enforcement less confusing or complex.

 

[Bad Obsession]

Another point of contention for me is that I prefer to do my own work because I know the quality of the work. I have seen some yahoos over the years in marinas, working for marinas, and they do a half ass job. The yard laborers that do the work could be some high school kid that never painted a boat bottom before and doesn't know to do bottom prep.

I am also of the school of thought that if I own it I should know how to fix it. Sometimes we sail to some places that aren't close to development so knowing how something works, how to fix it, and how to keep it going is probably a good idea. Because I do my own work I know every square inch of my boat (I have bled enough in her for her to be a close family relation).

Sure, if the owner wants to do all the work at the yard that is great, and he can do it on a different boat!

 

[Stu Jackson]

Amen, to that! The only two times anybody else ever worked on my boat (except for bottom paint and insurance repairs when some bozo hit me while I was at anchor!!!), I had to fix myself.

If you can't fix it yourself, you got big problems.

If you can't fix it yourself, you oughta learn how to.

 

[kimelmore]

It would be rather simple to draft an agreement of release of liability and the requirement to provide proof of insurance if a boat owner wishes to do his own work in a regulated boat yard. The owner would then sign an agreement to follow any rules for environmental and occupational safety the boat yard requires. This would include things like fall protection, eye safety, hearing protection as well as the use of vacuum sanders etc. The yard operator would also be able to charge what the market bears. Everyone wins. Maybe the market doesn't require a marina or boatyard to provide a place for DIY'ers

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

It would be rather simple to draft an agreement of release of liability and the requirement to provide proof of insurance if a boat owner wishes to do his own work in a regulated boat yard.

Unfortunately, it isn that easy. You can sign indemnification agreements all day long and that changes nothing about the liability scheme in environmental or OSHA statutes or any equivalent state law. Neither would it change any underwriter's contractually obligated insurance liability.

Or stated differently, there is no such thing as a free lunch.

 

[capta]

Thanks for the heads up all. Just another reason to not go back to the states.
In Trini, they not only allow you to DIY, but they help you all they can. For pennies a day you can have an air conditioner installed over a hatch and that makes living aboard in the yard a pleasure.
Since y'all have sailing boats, just tell the boss you need a couple of months off to haul your boat and sail on down. You'll not be sorry.

 

[justsomeguy]

Just another reason to not go back to the states.

 

[wufibugs]

Scott, I don't think anyone suggested that boatyard owners should or could constitutionally be forced to let DIYers work in their yards. I think the posters were trying to explain why that is becoming rarer and what could or could not be done to make allowing us to do our own work more attractive to yard owners.