Spinnaker Pole to Wing out Genoa

Scott T-Bird · Mar 17, 2016

I guess I had to review the term "by the lee" to understand this discussion fully. I have been setting the pole (I have one of those "goofy button-lock" whisker poles

) on a reach and then bearing off downwind until I gybe the main. At that point, though, I normally do back off to the point where I'm sailing "by the lee". I can't say that I have ever set my genoa to windward with the pole. That is probably why I was skeptical about the description from Yacht World which advises setting the pole and the genoa to the windward side. I can't imagine wrestling my 150 genoa to windward against the wind. The description in YW is oriented to a furled head sail though. They describe furling the sail then setting the pole to windward, clipping in the windward sheet, and then unfurling the genoa to the windward side. I don't see how this works for a hanked-on sail. Nevertheless, I am going to see if I can manage this alternate technique.
I reviewed this article, http://jworldannapolis.com/wing-and-wing-and-win/ which seems to indicate that W on W is actually advantageous when sailing "by the lee". However, that seems to be oriented toward small boats. I would qualify my boat as a small boat, and the conditions have never been extreme when I've sailed "by the lee". So, perhaps, that is the reason for my perception and I will go along with anybody who suggests that the most efficient techniques are bound to be altered based on boat size, sail area, wind strengths, and crew.
I will relate that during my last opportunity to set the 150 genoa with whisker pole, single-handed, in 20+ knot wind strength (flat water), I was sailing "by the lee" and had an accidental gybe. I experienced one of those "oh sh!t" moments as it started to happen, thinking that it would be disastrous for the rig. I think I was forward of the wheel, and my only reaction was to get my head out of the way. As it turned out, the boom came across with a very soft, gentle landing, to my great relief and surprise. I don't know how to account for it ... I thought maybe the boat's forward momentum had something to do with it as speed on the GPS was regularly over 7.5 knots. But most likely, it was just pure dumb luck, perhaps from a sudden lull or wind shift. So, with regard to sailing "by the lee" ... there certainly are risks involved.

Davidasailor26 · Mar 17, 2016

Jackdaw said:
That's how to set it up for sure. But trimming is different; even when sailing very deep, spinnakers are trimmed to generate lift and are shaped to do so. As far as I can tell, WoW sailing involves setting the sail so it acts like a big air dam and works in push mode. I'd be interested to hear if anyone thinks otherwise.

I have been on boats that used the headsail purely as drag downwind. But I did crew on one where the headsail with pole still had enough curvature to get the airflow going back to front over the sail and generating lift. We would trim the pole forward and back to keep the angle of attack matched to the wind, trying to keep signs of the telltales flowing backward without letting the "luff" collapse, just as you'd do with a spinnaker.

weinie · Mar 17, 2016

Scott,
Methinks you are over complicating this. Keep the main on the side on the tack with the 'most' wind or where the wind will soon shift to if oscillating. Why risk an accidental gybe
The jib, even 150, is easy to flip back and forth when DDW as long as you detach the pole at the clew first.

Also, if the wind is 20+ knts, why do you need to sail WnW? You should be able to sail pretty deep and keep the sails on the same side without risking an accidental gybe (too much).

Gunni · Mar 17, 2016

Yes, WoW is push mode. And it radically moves CLE forward, rendering the steering like an overloaded pickup truck. Gybe preventer is essential, the course groove is very narrow. Especially if the wind pipes up.

Scott T-Bird · Mar 17, 2016

weinie said:
Also, if the wind is 20+ knts, why do you need to sail WnW? You should be able to sail pretty deep and keep the sails on the same side without risking an accidental gybe (too much).

I guess, basically, for the fun of it.

Also, Barnegat Bay can be surprisingly restrictive. The southwest wind was running directly up the bay, with miles and miles of unrestricted ddw running. Change course just a little, one way or the other, and you have shallow water on the right side and land on the left side, both coming up very rapidly. You want to stay in that slot where the water depth lets you go!

I don't think I have complicated it, necessarily. The set-up is as simple as a single-handed sailor can make it. I can stabilize the boat on a reach without being at the helm, far more easily than risking a gybe by going ddw with nobody at the helm. Then, when I'm at the helm, I can gybe the main with relative ease. What I would change, though, is establishing a course that sets the genoa more like a spinnaker, as David describes, rather than sailing "by the lee". That is what I have learned from this thread, and I will absolutely try this out when I have an opportunity!

Davidasailor26 · Mar 17, 2016

Scott T-Bird said:
establishing a course that sets the genoa more like a spinnaker, as David describes, rather than sailing "by the lee". That is what I have learned from this thread, and I will absolutely try this out when I have an opportunity!

I think you'll find that if nothing else it's a little less stressful to sail with the Genoa to windward. When you're by the lee, if you get turned by a wave, it's a gibe. When the Genoa is to windward, then the Genoa may collapse, but that's not as bad a thing.

I've also though that when you're by the lee, the Genoa will be getting bad or blanketed air from the main, rather than clear air for both sails (although I've never read anything agreeing or disagreeing with that guess).

Kings Gambit · Mar 17, 2016

With the genoa poled properly to windward, I believe that a course slightly higher than ddw will generate lift similar to that of a spinnaker. I pole out when I cannot sail low enough w/o having the genoa losing its air and collapsing. It's not always a course strictly ddw.

Kings Gambit · Mar 17, 2016

Kings Gambit said:
With the genoa poled properly to windward, I believe that a course slightly higher than ddw will generate lift similar to that of a spinnaker. I pole out when I cannot sail low enough w/o having the genoa losing its air and collapsing. It's not always a course strictly ddw.

There's also a "lazy man's" version of the w 'in w that I use frequently for short-distance corrections to an otherwise broad-reaching course; i.e., to get lower so as to avoid a later gybe. It's just wing 'in wing w/o using the whisker pole at all. Haul the genoa to the windward side of the boat and fall off some; trim the sheet until the sail snaps full. From there on play the sail like a spinnaker; trim on the curls, then ease to refill the sail, etc. Trim, ease, trim, ease, etc. You can keep this up for some time w/ a good helm, which is typically my wife, who knows how to do this properly. Sometimes returning to the LA Gate from Two Harbors we're too high and cannot reach lower w/o losing the genoa. So, I just haul it over and play as above to get more dw for the distance it takes to set up on the gate, whereupon we return to the broad reach. I'll call it goose-winging., but I doubt that is an original term. Can do this in 20+ kt and rolling seas. It's quick & convenient.

weinie · Mar 17, 2016

Scott T-Bird said:
I guess, basically, for the fun of it. Also, Barnegat Bay can be surprisingly restrictive. The southwest wind was running directly up the bay, with miles and miles of unrestricted ddw running. Change course just a little, one way or the other, and you have shallow water on the right side and land on the left side, both coming up very rapidly. You want to stay in that slot where the water depth lets you go!

I don't think I have complicated it, necessarily. The set-up is as simple as a single-handed sailor can make it. I can stabilize the boat on a reach without being at the helm, far more easily than risking a gybe by going ddw with nobody at the helm. Then, when I'm at the helm, I can gybe the main with relative ease. What I would change, though, is establishing a course that sets the genoa more like a spinnaker, as David describes, rather than sailing "by the lee". That is what I have learned from this thread, and I will absolutely try this out when I have an opportunity!

A heavy 150 dacron genoa will not fly like a spinnaker

Scott T-Bird said:
I guess, basically, for the fun of it. Also, Barnegat Bay can be surprisingly restrictive. The southwest wind was running directly up the bay, with miles and miles of unrestricted ddw running. Change course just a little, one way or the other, and you have shallow water on the right side and land on the left side, both coming up very rapidly. You want to stay in that slot where the water depth lets you go!

I don't think I have complicated it, necessarily. The set-up is as simple as a single-handed sailor can make it. I can stabilize the boat on a reach without being at the helm, far more easily than risking a gybe by going ddw with nobody at the helm. Then, when I'm at the helm, I can gybe the main with relative ease. What I would change, though, is establishing a course that sets the genoa more like a spinnaker, as David describes, rather than sailing "by the lee". That is what I have learned from this thread, and I will absolutely try this out when I have an opportunity!

If I was solo AND was limited in my mobility to maneuver AND in heavy winds, the last thing I'd want would be to put a pole up or do any work on the foredeck for that matter.

Scott T-Bird · Mar 17, 2016

weinie said:
If I was solo AND was limited in my mobility to maneuver AND in heavy winds, the last thing I'd want would be to put a pole up or do any work on the foredeck for that matter.

That sounds like a brow-beating from a crotchety old man!

Hence, my recent topic on sailing single-handedly.

weinie · Mar 17, 2016

LOL!
Just got back from the gym... I feel old

hehehe
I just meant what I said from a tactical standpoint. You have to weigh whether using the pole is worth the risk of things going pear shaped up at the pointy end when you can pretty much fly towards your downwind destination at 150 degrees off the true wind anyway at that wind speed.

JerryA · Mar 17, 2016

Easy to do single-handed, or has been easy to do. Controlling the pole helps a lot . I frequently set my spinnaker by myself, and I find poling out the jib easier. Of course most of the time I'm doing this in lighter wind. In a decent breeze I don't bother with either, because then things do become a little busier for one. Try it out in light air to start.

JerryA

Stu Jackson · Mar 17, 2016

We stopped using a pole when my crew "retired" --- literally. He bought an RV and started touring by land!!!

We have enough wind here, usually, to be able to W&W without a pole, although it came in handy when racing.

We all recognize that W&W is not always the fastest way downwind.

But I've had some wonderful experiences sailing W&W with a little "by the lee" across SF Bay from the Golden Gate Bridge to Berkeley. 20 knots TW, BIG grin, behind the wheel (rare for me, see Scott's singlehanding topic for more). Out on The Bay we have a LOT of room to maneuver. If you have Scott's restrictions, it does take Planning Ahead.

I also must "admit" I have never (NEVER) sailed any of my boats with a jib bigger than a 110.

See this, which I've posted many, many times:

A very illuminating and interesting discussion on co.com for those of you who might be in the market for a new jib.

http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=155362

Please read all three pages. Enjoy.

Scott T-Bird · Mar 18, 2016

weinie said:
LOL!
Just got back from the gym... I feel old hehehe
I just meant what I said from a tactical standpoint. You have to weigh whether using the pole is worth the risk of things going pear shaped up at the pointy end when you can pretty much fly towards your downwind destination at 150 degrees off the true wind anyway at that wind speed.

I see your point ... and feel the age, too! I learn a lot by trial and error. But I also appreciate the insights that come out of these threads. This one was particularly illuminating for me. I also admire your practical experience & knowledge that has been on display in here thru the years!

Kings Gambit · Mar 18, 2016

Scott T-Bird said:
I guess I had to review the term "by the lee" ...

Interesting term. For any others who might wish to know. Sailing by the lee essentially means that the wind is coming over the leeward side of the boat. Uh? This happens only when sailing close to a ddw course and the boat's stern passes through the eye of the wind yet the boom does not immediately gybe. Because the leeward side of the boat is defined (in racing) as the side on which the boom lies, one sails by the lee because wind is coming, "technically", from the leeward side of the boat, the side that the boom is still on. The problem of course is that the boom might gybe at anytime one is sailing by the lee, and if unintended would be an accidental gybe, which can be "dangerous."

Jackdaw · Mar 18, 2016

While you have to watch it more, if your boom is all the way out you can go VERY lee and not have the boat auto-gybe. Often while racing we'll go 30+ degrees by the lee to stay on starboard!

Gunni · Mar 18, 2016

Jackdaw, you are a experienced sailor with a skilled crew. I have lost count of the situations where an inexperienced driver, and less skilled deck crew lost track of the wind, lulled by easy downwind motion, and low apparent wind have thrown a boat into an accidental crash gybe. Bring a boom across 150deg and pulled up short is a recipe for injury and rig failure. Especially with the mid-sheeted booms popular on cruisers. Just last year we witnessed a newbie owner crash Gybe his new Jeanneau, resulting in a dimpled boom at the mainsheet lead and the required replacement of the boom. He is lucky his boom and mainsheet tackle took the load, because his shrouds were in line. Like many cruisers he had no boom brake / Gybe preventer on board, and no idea how one works. We often don't sail with a skilled crew, and I like to give everyone a chance to drive, so when the wind is not on the nose the Wichard Gybe-Ezy gets clipped in. An "oops" replaces an "omg" .

Kings Gambit · Mar 18, 2016

When I try to get lower on the current gybe, the genoa goose-winged as described above, my wife or anyone else at the helm, I announce, out loud, "by the lee", so everyone is made aware of that fact and knows when we're there. I'm always "looking" even if not everyone else is. (Of course, it may not help too much if the helm is wallowing to and fro, etc., every minute or two.) Besides, one does not have to "look." The experienced sailor knows when he's by the lee from the (proverbial) "wind hitting the face." That is what you have to teach folks, somehow! Too bad about the Jenneau owner!

heritage · Mar 20, 2016

Joe said:
The key to wing on wing is controlling the pole. That means you should have a topping lift and a foreguy. With the top, fore and sheet you have triangular control of the pole.... while the inboard is secured to the mast. While this sounds complicated, the pole can be rigged ahead of time, kept on deck with the topping lift slacked or unclipped and kept near the mast, clear of the upwind gear. When it's time to deploy, your foredeck crew can control the pole while another hoists it with the topping lift... they snap the pole onto the sheet first, then the mast, then use the foreguy to set the position.
If you don't support the pole with the topping lift and fore guy the sail will be much more stressful to handle.....
For more security you can apply a preventer to the boom...

That said... there are different forces that a spinnaker pole is designed to accommodate from those that a whisker pole addresses... So.. obviously it is not recommend to use the spin pole as a whisker pole in challenging conditions... or vice versa.

That is the rig that we would use on a long downwind leg in the trades. Usually the night before the pole would be rigged into position with the three lines that JOE described. The furled genoa sheet is led through the eye of the spinnaker pole so that it is easy to unfurl and furl the genoa without touching the pole. No one has to go forward during the crossing. The boom would be controlled with a preventer.