Self Tailing Winch Size, trying to choose...

CloudDiver

CloudDiver

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Sep 8, 2014
2,551
Catalina 22 Swing Keel San Diego
After much debate (and kicking myself for throwing my budget to the wind), I'm going to get Self Tailing winches for my 82 C-22. I came to this conclusion for two reasons; first, I can loose the cam cleats... but more importantly, I tried putting a few turns of my 3/8" headsail sheet around my small Andersen 10 winches (same same as the stock ARCO 6) and the small drum diameter just does not play well with any line size bigger than 5/16 or 8mm. So the Andersen 10's are going on the cabin top as halyard winches and I'll get Self Tailers for the primaries.

I was about to part with a large chunk of change on a pair of Andersen ST 12's, when I noticed that the ST 18's are only $45 more each than the 12's. What I need help/advice with is if the extra cost is worth what I will gain. I've listed the major stats below for comparison... basically the drum diameter is the same between the two, but the ST 18 is a bit taller, has a slightly larger base diameter, but the real kicker is the power ratio... basically double what the ST 12's power is.
I'm mostly concerned with the 18 being too large for the space it has to sit on the coaming. I found that one of my stainless steel bowls from IKEA has exactly the same base diameter, 4.75", so I traced out the footprint in pencil on the coaming... it just barley fits in the 'lines'. The ST 12 has a base diameter that is just .25 inch less, so it has a little more buffer. I know 'by the numbers' the ST 18 is a better winch, but I'm wondering if will just cross the line of being 'too big'. BTW, all the nonskid is sanded off of my coamings. I'll be putting on new non-skid in nice patterns around my hardware after everything is test installed.
Pics with stats on each winch below;
 
CloudDiver

CloudDiver

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Sep 8, 2014
2,551
Catalina 22 Swing Keel San Diego
Andersen ST 12


Drum Dia, 2 3/4"
Base Dia, 4 1/2"
Height, 5 1/8"
Weight, 5.7 lb
Power, 9.5 : 1
 
CloudDiver

CloudDiver

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Sep 8, 2014
2,551
Catalina 22 Swing Keel San Diego
Andersen ST 18



Drum Dia, 2 3/4" (yes, same as ST 12)
Base Dia, 4 3/4" (1/4" larger base)
Height, 5 3/8" (1/4" taller)
Weight, 7 lb (1.3 lb heavier)
Power, 18.8 : 1 (double the power)
 
E

EditorC22NSA

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Apr 21, 2015
127
Catalina 22 Sport #15582 Indianapolis
For benchmarking purpose only ... Catalina Yachts installs ST14 on new Catalina 22 Sports leaving the factories when self tailing is requested.
 
Jackdaw

Jackdaw

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Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Well the 18 is not 'better' per se, just more powerful. And at a cost.

The 12 is direct drive, meaning a 1:1 gear ratio with the handle. All of the 'power' comes from the handle sweep over the drum turn. The 18 is 2:1 internally.

The 18 will have more grunt but the lower ratio on the 12s takes in line A LOT faster. For a headsail on a C22 in a light air venue I'd be tempted to look at the 12s.

Look at Lewmar 14STs too, at Defender now for US$428.
 
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M

markwbird

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Nov 26, 2012
1,654
C&C 40-2 Berkeley
I get all my winches on Ebay. A little patience and diligence saves a lot of money.
 
CloudDiver

CloudDiver

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Sep 8, 2014
2,551
Catalina 22 Swing Keel San Diego
EditorC22NSA said:
For benchmarking purpose only ... Catalina Yachts installs ST14 on new Catalina 22 Sports leaving the factories when self tailing is requested.
Click to expand
Good info... the base diameter on the Lewmar ST 14 is the same as the Andersen ST 18. The new Catalinas off the line probably have a larger mounting surface than my old 82, buta 4.75" base just barley fits.
 
CloudDiver

CloudDiver

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Sep 8, 2014
2,551
Catalina 22 Swing Keel San Diego
Jackdaw said:
Well the 18 is not 'better' per se, just more powerful. And at a cost.

The 12 is direct drive, meaning a 1:1 gear ratio with the handle. All of the 'power' comes from the handle sweep over the drum turn. The 18 is 2:1 internally.

The 18 will have more grunt but the lower ratio on the 12s takes in line A LOT faster. For a headsail on a C22 in a light air venue I'd be tempted to look at the 12s.

Look at Lewmar 14STs too, at Defender now for US$428.
Click to expand
That's probably the most valuable point right there Jackdraw... I totally looked past the point that the drum on the 18 will not turn nearly as fast. Yes more power, but its probably much more likely that I'll need to sheet in faster than being in conditions where I need double the mechanical advantage on the winch. The step up in drum diameter from the stock ARCO 6 to any size self tailing winch in this range is already a big step up.
Also, if I went with the 12 and still need a little 'more power' I could go from an 8 inch to a 10 winch winch handle.
 
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kito

kito

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Sep 13, 2012
2,011
1979 Hunter Cherubini 30 Clemmons
I am not a racer but is a 2 speed winch necessary on a C22? I very seldom even use the winches on my jib sheets. I just have a hank on 110 though........
 
Jackdaw

Jackdaw

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Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
CloudDiver said:
That's probably the most valuable point right there Jackdraw... I totally looked past the point that the drum on the 18 will not turn nearly as fast. Yes more power, but its probably much more likely that I'll need to sheet in faster than being in conditions where I need double the mechanical advantage on the winch. The step up in drum diameter from the stock ARCO 6 to any size self tailing winch in this range is already a big step up.
Also, if I went with the 12 and still need a little 'more power' I could go from an 8 inch to a 10 winch winch handle.
Click to expand
Yep. Exactly. I'm a big fan of fast retrieves on a sheet winch. Double true if you ever go spinnaker. And as you note, you can add easy power with a long handle.
 
CloudDiver

CloudDiver

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Sep 8, 2014
2,551
Catalina 22 Swing Keel San Diego
kito said:
I am not a racer but is a 2 speed winch necessary on a C22? I very seldom even use the winches on my jib sheets. I just have a hank on 110 though........
Click to expand
The 18 ST isn't 2 speed, still single speed but is geared 2:1 internally so that explains why it is the same general size winch as the 12 ST but has double the mechanical advantage.
 
CloudDiver

CloudDiver

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Sep 8, 2014
2,551
Catalina 22 Swing Keel San Diego
BTW, I just noticed on the Andersen website, there is a up to $300 mail in rebate for winches purchased starting March 1st to May 27th 2016. Download the rebate form and detail here;
http://andersenwinches.com/aw/rebate.asp
The rebate is based on winch size, so size 12, 18, 28, or 34 is only $50.
you have to buy a BIG winch or electric winch to get the $300 Rebate, LOL
 
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Benny17441

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May 24, 2004
7,164
CC 30 South Florida
The important size of the footprint is given by the location of the bolts, the excess is cosmetic. In my humble opinion save the money and get the ST12s. As far as the size of the line, if you can wrap three turns around the drum it is adequate. To properly load a winch and extend its useful life you will need at least three wraps around the drum.
 
Ward H

Ward H

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Nov 7, 2011
3,776
Catalina 30 Mk II Cedar Creek, Bayville NJ
I put those ST12s on my O'day. Great upgrade. Costly but I use them to their fullest every sail. Plenty of power for my O'day so I agree saving the money and invest in one of those one hand release locking winch handles.
 
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CloudDiver

CloudDiver

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Sep 8, 2014
2,551
Catalina 22 Swing Keel San Diego
I ordered the ST12's... Best Online price I found was OffShore Spars, and there is a $50 rebate (each) from Ronstan. I haven't found a better price on any other ST winch. I hate chrome and I haven't seen any aluminum winch where the anodize does not fade from UV, stainless is the way to go. I went with the ST 12's over the 18's because of Jackdaw's comment, the sheet in on the 12 will be much faster. Plus, I know the 4.5 inch base will fit just fine on my cockpit coaming, and less money... $440.50 after rebate, no sales tax and free shipping.
 
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