Worse than a Spanish galleon?

[PotomacDaysailer]

I wonder how bad my performance to windward was on my last sail - as I told my brother, I think I'd have been outsailed by a Spanish galleon.

I took my Pearson 26 out on Oklahoma's Ft. Gibson lake, a smallish body of water, about 5 nm by 1.5 nm. The wind was blowing hard, force 5 with gusts to force 7, in the SSE. We were under reefed main and working jib, averaging maybe 4 kts over the bottom, heeling 30 deg. to over 45 and laboring heavily. About the best course made good that I could mange was 65 to 70 degrees off the wind, or about 6 points. So I wonder how that would compare to the actual windward performance of a 16th-century square-rigger?

 

[31seahorse]

Hello PatomicDaysailer,
Interesting question to consider instead of watching the parades. I just searched "sailing a Spanish galleon" and found that in Mobile, Alabama there is a full sized replica that is open to the public even as I type! Well, 11/20 to 11/29. The website is elgaleon.org There are several choices to find info about the ship. 31seahorse

 

[Sandy Stone]

Hmmm... I used to own a Pearson 26 (One-Design model) and I have to say, something doesn't sound right. That is plenty of breeze, but I assume on a small lake waves are not that big a factor. The boat should sail around 45 deg off the wind, feathering up in the puffs, probably making a little leeway because it's plenty heeled over. Are you sure the jibsheet lead is in the correct position?

 

[Skipper]

You have to put the sails to leeward but make them flat. Let them luff slightly is ok in strong wind. Main traveler to leeward. Heave on the main foot outhaul as tight as possible. Crank the halyard (into the wind)to get the luff tight. The reduced draft will allow a higher attack angle. You'll get better speed if you keep her on her bottom, otherwise you're pushing the hullside through the water.

 

[shemandr]

I think the best the square riggers, and I don't know 16th from 17th century, would do is 90 degrees to the wind. In other words they couldn't sail to weather. I once read a book which recreated Navel battles of that era and the strategy was a lot about getting the "Weather Gage." Often, such as was the case in the Battle of Lake Champlain, a wind shift would decide the outcome. Once beaten by ending up to lee the leeward ship would turn and run to escape. As often as not shots were few. Often the shots were aimed at the rig to incapacitate the ship for capture. The ships were far to valuable to risk destruction. The crews? Well....

 

[lillia28]

As mentioned a square rigger will sail about 6 points or 66 degrees off the wind, mostly because the yards hit the standing rigging. Same idea as inboard genoa tracks. There is a great book for winter reading, Seamanship in the Age of Sail, which explains everything about square rig sailing, and why backing and filling is not a metaphore.
The weather guage and aiming for the rigging is a cultural thing, the French believeing that being downwind enabled one to refuse battle and therefore was preferrable. The Brits, imho being an island and needing the Royal Navy to be perceived as invincible, were much tougher on ships. See Chochrane taking the 36 gun el gamo with the 14 gun Speedy. (Sophie/ Cacafuego to PoB fans). Tactically, a sea chase and a Wednesday night around the buoys race are exactly the same thing.
L

 

[Kings Gambit]

As mentioned a square rigger will sail about 6 points or 66 degrees off the wind, mostly because the yards hit the standing rigging. Same idea as inboard genoa tracks. There is a great book for winter reading, Seamanship in the Age of Sail, which explains everything about square rig sailing, and why backing and filling is not a metaphore.
The weather guage and aiming for the rigging is a cultural thing, the French believeing that being downwind enabled one to refuse battle and therefore was preferrable. The Brits, imho being an island and needing the Royal Navy to be perceived as invincible, were much tougher on ships. See Chochrane taking the 36 gun el gamo with the 14 gun Speedy. (Sophie/ Cacafuego to PoB fans). Tactically, a sea chase and a Wednesday night around the buoys race are exactly the same thing.
L

With the attacking ship to weather (i.e., weather gauge) if not heeled over too far, it could fire its leeward battery more directly at the hull of the leeward vessel, also heeled and thus exposing its weather hull/bilge. I guess the British wanted to sink or hole enemy vessels rather than simply disable them by firing away at the masts and then maybe setting them afire. A sinking ship might strike earlier [and quit firing] than one with only a mast down, etc. Considering that they eventually came to "Rule the Waves" I guess it proved the better strategy of engagement. Of course, that's not what we saw in "Master and Commander", and that is not the explanation offered by Captain Aubury in that movie for the meaning of "weather gauge" which was to allow "control" of the engagement. Clearly, if the vessel having the lee gauge may choose "fight or flight" it has more "control." Regarding upwind performance of the Pearson, my Pearson 30 could sail fairly high on the wind in Force 5 (fresh breeze) and remain flat by feathering her up in stronger gusts.

 

[Gunni]

Time for new sails. Yours are as bagged out as those muslin cotton sails of old.

 

[shemandr]

Thanks for the new to me prospective on the term weather gage. I guess I'm having trouble adjusting my thinking to the realities of war in the age of sail. But I can see how the leeward ship can control the engagement.
It would be a fun exercise sometime to put two boats in an arena, marking their sheets so that they can't sail closer to weather than 66 degrees. One could enter from one side and the other on the other like the AC starts. You'd have to have water ballon canons or whatever (Insurance people avert your eyes).

 

[woodster]

Thanks for the new to me prospective on the term weather gage. I guess I'm having trouble adjusting my thinking to the realities of war in the age of sail. But I can see how the leeward ship can control the engagement.
It would be a fun exercise sometime to put two boats in an arena, marking their sheets so that they can't sail closer to weather than 66 degrees. One could enter from one side and the other on the other like the AC starts. You'd have to have water ballon canons or whatever (Insurance people avert your eyes).

Giant paint balls....hum I wonder if that's how Errol Flynn did it

 

[shemandr]

Paint balls would definitely give the contest more edge!

 

[lillia28]

KG,
That's exactly what I was trying to say, only I was less elegant! Historically, the contestant who ultimately wins gets to write the history, and gets to write the definitions. In M & C weren't the orders "Sink, Burn or take as a Prize" which MAY be a clue to the Admiralty's priorities or to the thinking of the screenplay author. It is my opinion that the RN wanted to have a reputation as somewhat ruthless, so the enemy would surrender as soon as they saw the Red Ensign. The Dread Pirate Roberts did serve in the Royal Navy.
There is no need to restrict your tacking radius to have a water cannon battle. All that will do is require a MUCH bigger playground.
And according to Hollywood legend Errol Flynn did have giant (paint) balls! He was also a very competent sailor, yacht named Zaca.
Lou

 

[lillia28]

I did not mean to hijack the original thread, I had a Macgregor 2-22, with a too short fore stay, therefore "negative" mast rake, and couldn't hardly tack. After I got the rigging corrected she was much better, so you may want to check mast rake, and rigging tension in general. A P 26 should be pretty weatherly.

 

[PotomacDaysailer]

An update - a few days later, in much more moderate conditions (13-18 kts) with the full main and 110 genoa, heeling 15-25 degrees, I was able to make good 4 1/2 points off the wind. By most accounts (thanks for the links, I read them) a 19th century square-rigged ship could do no better than 6 points, before leeway; a Spanish galleon, less even than that - I'm surprised that they make any progress to windward at all.

 

[PotomacDaysailer]

Tactically I would think the weather gauge would be the equivalent of holding high ground on land - you could hold your position and force your adversary to fight their way "uphill" into your guns, or turn off the wind and make a rush down at him at the time of your choosing. Although due to heel a two-decker might not be able to open her lower deck ports on the leeward side; and the leeward ship might have better visibility with the gun smoke drifting away on the un-engaged side rather than masking her opponent.

 

[JamesG161]

outsailed by a Spanish galleon.

Laden with gold or just rock ballast?

Giant paint balls....hum I wonder if that's how Errol Flynn did it

Are paint balls environmentally friendly?

Errol Flynn had one major advantage....
Director yelled CUT!!!

One key was the ship design...

Spanish BIG and lot of cargo like guns and people. Thus many sails to drive the ship. Weak sail fabric and running rigging needed people to adjust the many sails needed.

British moderate size, fast, gunnery practice, maneuvered easily, resilient to hits taken, and not arrogant as the Spanish.

Yankee hull design, with lighter design, moderate cost, more like the French.

French built for speed to give them the weather gauge.

Jim...

 

[topcat0399]

Pretty much all ships of size were down-winders before say; the American revolution. Scores of English fleets were stranded at the entrance to the English channel for months on end consuming their supplies before returning to port in failure - oh the misery those people endured. Those darn westerlies. Even worse was returning home from very afar to a loong easterly. The Spanish had the luxury of being much closer to the trade-winds - easier get someplace west and back again.

For centuries standing order primary for English fleet ships was engage the enemy as closely as possible always. Since France was east and the British usually fleet west - the tactics adopted by both sides follow. This suited the French navies penchant for running down into harbor quick I'm thinkin'

Cool subject - lets get some booze and discuss it much further.....

 

[Kings Gambit]

Adm. Nelson attacking a combined Spanish and French fleet in the fall of 1805. British have the "weather gauge" as they are heading east with the wind NNW. The leeward ships of the combined fleet cannot so easily break and run as they are heading north in light air against the leeshore at Cape Trafalgar. They'd be "sitting ducks" attempting to wear ship (jibe) to run SE after the battle engaged. The French admiral had, however, planned to use Cadiz as a refuge from the British, and some ships made it there, thus escaping. Nevertheless, here at least, the British do have "control" of the engagment!!

 

[topcat0399]

I could look at that map for hours just for fun...

 

[PotomacDaysailer]

I could look at that map for hours just for fun...

Me too!