Min hp for strong currents

[centerline]

I just don't see the humor in falling overboard in rough weather. Sorry, but I just can't help wondering just which branch of the evolutionary tree you're swinging from..

im swinging from the one that tells me to prepare, hang on and use my senses so I dont end up in jeopardy...
I have never found any product, that can be had at any price, that takes the place of common sense, or that will insure against the lack of it..

 

[Daveinet]

...
I really do hope they continue to work on it so the price comes down and technology goes up. I would love to have a quiet electric motor on my sailboat and I'm not convinced there's a trolling motor currently available that meets my needs.

if it wasn't for the currents, a 86lbs thrust trolling motor would work beautifully. That is what I use and less than 400 bucks w/batteries. Nearly equivalent to my previous 4HP. Dual motors might work, but it is a bit of an up front investment to prove it. The motors are down to $135 bucks each.

 

[mm2347]

My mooring buddy used a large electric trolling motor on his 24' hunter for the first 1/2 of the season. We sail on Lake MI. and will sometimes get big gusty winds that seem to sneak up on what was forcasted and was a nice day. The trolling motor just did not have enough push to push the bow into the wind to wind up his jib or drop his main. Untill then he loved the quite and switch on or off ease of operation. Pushing the boat in or out of harbor or using when the wind stopped the trolling motor worked great. Just didn't have enough when the wind hit him hard at the wrong angles. He now has a 8 hp gas outboard.

 

[Daveinet]

What was the amount of thrust? Most people that try it, do not use a big enough motor - meaning one that requires two batteries. I've been able to drive up wind in what someone told me later was peaking 30mph. It was slow, but made progress. I also did not run it wide open. Now I did discover pushing 20mph wind and dragging the centerboard doesn't work. Silly me.

 

[atrometer]

I can see electric start being very worth while. Most of the time when you get yourself into one of those situations, you are reacting too late, which causes a lot of scrambling. If the motor decides to be ornery that day, you can get into trouble really fast. As most of these small engines are not fuel injected, it is very easy to flood the engine. Typically happens when you just shut the engine off, but the water temps are cold. You don't know how much the engine has cooled, and it doesn't want to start right away. Do you pull the choke or not? What does it really need? Time you play around, you are drifting ever closer to having a serious issue. At some point, you get very tired of pulling the rope, because you guessed wrong on how much choke. The advantage in that situation is that the electric start will crank the engine fast enough to clear the excess fuel out much quicker than trying to pull it by hand.
Simple plays both ways. Simple operation, or simple to get it started in those questionable situations.

In reality, if you want really simple, I'd be very inclined to look at one of the bigger Torqeedo's, such as a Cruise 2T. Very dependable, lightweight. You can't get anything more simple than a switch.

Anchors solve that problem - you can take all day to start the engine.

 

[allen-deckard]

guys the thread is down to opinions that cant be proved in anyway shape or form.

It's what you want not what you need.

He asked what the min hp you can get away with. 3hp is the min you can get away with. past that everything is what you want in a motor.

Let me put it this way.
I like leather seats in my truck. Do I need leather seats in a truck? No, but I like them so I have them.
Do you NEED electric start? Nope. But I like electric start so I have electric start.
I could name 50 reasons why I like electric start and how it has made my life and boating more convient BUT you don't need it.

SO
Electric start
Electric tilt
Larger motor
alternator

All of these things are great I like all of them and own all of them but they aren't needed obviously. So lets leave it at that. If you don't want these things in your motor that's all good you don't need them you can sail just fine without them. IF you do want them then great get them they are great fun. But if you don't again that's fine but no reason to berate people that do want them. If you do want them that's cool but don't berate those that don't want them.

I have yet to understand why so many people seem to think that because something works for them then everyone HAS to have it. OR if you don't need it then NOBODY needs it.

Tons of great info on here all the time half the stuff on my boat is some sort of variation on something I've seen on here or at least most of it. Somethings I've seen people do I thought was cool but don't want. Somethings that I've seen are cool and I've used but the things I didn't want I just congratulated those that did want it.

I know this was way long winded and it's not just this thread that I've seen it where to many people seem to get MAD at someone for doing something they wouldn't do themselves. I don't see the need unless you see it as very dangerous.

 

[Daveinet]

guys the thread is down to opinions that cant be proved in anyway shape or form. It's what you want not what you need. He asked what the min hp you can get away with. 3hp is the min you can get away with. past that everything is what you want in a motor.

... I don't see the need unless you see it as very dangerous.

Do you think a 3HP motor will push a a 2500 lbs boat against 3 knots of current into a 25 knot headwind?

 

[bushav]

I am loving my 5 hp Tohatsu. My wife and I are really glad we spent the $1300 to get a new outboard. On our recent 4 day outing we had to motor more than half the time due to unfavorable winds. On the west bound trip we motored 6 hours during the night and burned 1.8 gallons. On the east bound trip we punched into waves, tide and 30 knot headwinds. Granted on that particular leg I would have liked the 9.9. The 5 hp was moving us but at wide open throttle we were making 1.5 knots for a while. When a particularly large wave would hit the boat would shudder, stop and start moving again slowly. I am not sure more hp would have helped but it couldn't have hurt. I do think that experience taught me a lot about handling my boat and only reinforced my appreciation for the Tohatsu.

Lane

 

[allen-deckard]

Do you think a 3HP motor will push a a 2500 lbs boat against 3 knots of current into a 25 knot headwind?

yep. Like I said owned one for 4 years on lake Cumberland that has a pretty good current in certain areas.
little less than 3/4 throttle maybe 2/3rd will push the boat at hull speed. that's 1/3rd left for wind and that's wanting to go upstream in 25kt winds at hull speed.

If you think I'm doubling my numbers it means the boat will still go at 2.5kts on average still making headway in about the worst condition the boat should be in.

I bought a 9.9hp with all the doodads and love it but it wasn't to push the boat any faster it was to get the features I wanted.

personally leaving out all the doodads I'd recommend a 6hp BUT I contend that isn't the min required but is a size that typically gives an external fuel tank can run the motor at 1/2 throttle putting less strain on the motor has a large enough prop to give thrust required for certain docking.

Also the 3 hp does not have reverse which is a pain in the arse but that wasn't the ops question.

Anyway not much else I have to say on the subject tons of the motor thing is personal opinion and preferences where one person might think something is a must have another may think it's a silly not need expensive option.

And with that I bow out.

 

[Gene Neill]

I am loving my 5 hp Tohatsu. My wife and I are really glad we spent the $1300 to get a new outboard. On our recent 4 day outing we had to motor more than half the time due to unfavorable winds. On the west bound trip we motored 6 hours during the night and burned 1.8 gallons. On the east bound trip we punched into waves, tide and 30 knot headwinds. Granted on that particular leg I would have liked the 9.9. The 5 hp was moving us but at wide open throttle we were making 1.5 knots for a while. When a particularly large wave would hit the boat would shudder, stop and start moving again slowly. I am not sure more hp would have helped but it couldn't have hurt. I do think that experience taught me a lot about handling my boat and only reinforced my appreciation for the Tohatsu.

Lane

If I'm not mistaken, your 5HP is just a 6HP with a different carb.

 

[Daveinet]

On the east bound trip we punched into waves, tide and 30 knot headwinds... The 5 hp was moving us but at wide open throttle we were making 1.5 knots for a while....Lane

vs

yep. Like I said owned one for 4 years on lake Cumberland that has a pretty good current in certain areas.
little less than 3/4 throttle maybe 2/3rd will push the boat at hull speed. that's 1/3rd left for wind and that's wanting to go upstream in 25kt winds at hull speed.

Same boat in both circumstances.The experience above is giving and example that shows it won't work. Somewhere between the two experiences, there is a discrepancy. Both experiences don't seem to be opinions, but actual experiences. We are missing something.

 

[allen-deckard]

don't know what to say I know what I've done and fully explained it more than a few times. I was not punching threw sea waves on a lake either. Maybe more windage on his boat, maybe I was not going 100% straight into the wind maybe 10deg off.
I really don't know.

A 3hp will not get you threw a hurricane while on the Colorado river trying to beat upstream. but in 99.999 percent of any situation that our small boat "should" be in it will get threw it.

With that said again I recommend a 6hp it will put a lot less stress on the motor and you get features that a 3 doesn't like reverse and external fuel tank. So the subject is beating a dead horse unless you plan on buying several different motors and put the boat in a wind tunnel with water and current to test everything out there is no way to get exact anything close is about all that any of us can get. I can tell you what I've done. You can believe it or say I'm wrong you can believe what someone else did and believe them or say they are wrong. BOTH CAN be right since every last bit of information isn't recorded. Maybe my boat bottom is a little cleaner, maybe I have less windage, maybe less weight, I can think of lots of variations that will make difference on the same boat.

Maybe I had 2 knot current and he had 4 heck that is 2 knots right there that's giant.

It just is what it is.

 

[bushav]

On our westbound leg we had about a four mile run directly in the strong wind, through the jetties in breaking waves.

Probably not the same conditions as a rough day on the lake.

I think that explains the descrepancy. We're not in a laboratory here!

Lane

 

[bushav]

Just so you guys know. After a decade of competitive sailplane flying I am here with you guys because.

1). I can share this activity with my wife.
2). I can enjoy sailing without ramping up into competition mode.
3). I was hoping to get away from the grumbling, complaining, dog eat dog world of competitive activities.

I realize some are in sailing in a serious way like I was with soaring. If I seem flippant or "not serious" just ignore me. I'm just trying to not fret this stuff. If you like a 3 hp for the weight "good on you". If you want a 9.9 for the power then please let me hitch a ride when you are safe in a storm and I'm not. For me and my bride we absorb all the info we can and then live with our choices

Lane

 

[Leeward Rail]

1). I can share this activity with my wife.

Get a Schweiser 233 ? You can restore it just like a C22 ;-)

As for the discrepancy. Like allen-decker says, a bunch of factors can effect it. STW vs SOG, Bigger waves, shorter period between waves, wind + waves, prop size, engine torque at that rpm, etc.
That's why it's hard to answer what is "best". The real answer is best given from someone who sails the same boat in the same locations, in the same conditions. After that it's more a rule of thumb IMO.
It's like the old thread of "how much wind can the C22 handle?" it depends on so many factors, that it's hard to give a definitive answer.
Since the C22 is commonly a beginner boat the more likely answer is "until you or your wife gets scared" LOL

What's the phrase ? Your Mileage May Vary ?

 

[walt]

regarding the current, Im not aware of anyone actually measuring this.. but it seems to me that the local wave making action from the hull moving through water that limits the boat speed to "theoretical hull speed" is the same regardless if the body of water is moving or not. Ie, hull speed is hull speed if your in current or not in current. If some outboard and boat combination can achieve 6 knots in no current, the same boat would go 9 knots going with 3 knots of current or 3 knots going against 3 knots of current.

If the lower hp outboard can achieve hull speed (like 3 or 4 hp), going to even double the hp might only increase your max speed by 5 or 10%. This still applies in current. If that 5 or10% increase in speed in current is important for safety.. you are pushing safety boundaries way too hard.

I think talking current with these displacement sailboats with motors that will push the boat up to "theoretical hull speed" isn't really something to consider. You need to deal with the current in other ways - a larger outboard isn't going to make any significant difference. High winds are something to consider, current not so much.

 

[allen-deckard]

agree with walt

 

[Hobopacket]

So, I was on the Nuese 4 weeks ago. I have a long shaft 6hp yammy. The single cylinder. I have the biggest seas I have ever been in with 30mph gusts. The motor is plenty big enough. I would think the tohatsu Sail Pro would be ideal. It has the charging system and plenty of power, cheap and reliable. If my motor didn't come with the boat and I was looking into a new one, that would be it.

 

[Leeward Rail]

Walt is correct. Theoretical Max Hull Speed through water doesn't change just because the water itself is moving over the ground.
That said, waves, which are worsened by wind against tide, would affect things.
I've had them momentarily stop a boat.
Thrust and acceleration variances for each outboard would make a difference in how fast the boat could get back up to hull speed. This not only makes a difference in average speed, but in some cases the motor would have a very hard task keeping the boat moving.

I would think the tohatsu Sail Pro would be ideal. It has the charging system and plenty of power, cheap and reliable. If my motor didn't come with the boat and I was looking into a new one, that would be it.

If you ever watch the video series by Dylan Winter called KeepTurningLeft, you will see that he upgraded to a Tohatsu Sailpro 6 on his Hunter Minstral 23 trailer sailor. This is the motor he chose, after Practical Boat Owner did a test of 8 small outboards on his boat and published the results in the Summer 2014 issue.
He uses the boat in freshwater lakes/rivers, and saltwater estuaries/coastal cruising.

 

[mm2347]

Sorry I don't know what size elect motor was. I would guess with more batt. and more "motor" there is an electric motor out there that could do the job. Current, wind speed, direction, gusts, and then waves -- size, shape, spacing, uniforminty, and direction will all push, pull, and drag your boat differently. Then of course different boat shapes and most of all different sailor likes, dislikes, or area needs. Often a little more than min. is best then what options in a motor do you want to be happy.