Heavy Weather

Jackdaw · Sep 25, 2015

Probably too broad for you to get any specific advice. So here's some general thoughts.

For me it depends on the BOAT, the CREW and the LOCATION.

Then I have limits for what conditions I will:

1) Decide to go out in

2) If caught out, in actively sail in

3) Deem survival conditions and act accordingly

Kings Gambit · Sep 25, 2015

Bad Obsession said:
Where is the line when the weather turns from good sailing to Heavy Weather?

I think that each person has their own definition of this. It is based on your boat, you sailing grounds, your experience, and the actual conditions. I think that a lot of us are guilty of overestimating the wind.

For me, with my Compac 23 and the sailing grounds being the Chesapeake Bay/Potomac River area, I consider heavy weather to be when the wind speed is getting around 20 knots sustained. 15-20 is a good bit of wind in a 23. If you are in an area with a good bit of fetch the waves are nasty in 20+ knots of wind. 25 knots is very windy.

My past trip I sailed in 20 sustained gusting to 25 for a while. The key was I was on the Windward side of the area this was happening so there wasn't much fetch. I was still sailing with a single reef and a partly rolled up 110.

How about you? What are your definitions?

Probably near or at Beaufort 7 ("Near Gale"), or higher, most of the time.

Wind speed 28-33 kt; Near Gale; Sea heaps up, waves 13-19 ft, white foam streaks off breakers

In my avatar it's blowing between about 28 & 32 kt, as I remember it; but seas only 6 to 8 ft or so.

Stu Jackson · Sep 25, 2015

We have what I call our "Summer Reef" in our main from mostly April to September every year with an 85% jib. San Francisco Bay is relatively flat, even on an ebb, compared to The Ocean. What we're used to as "normal" is pretty heavy for many others. Your definitions & Jack's are very good.

Gunni · Sep 25, 2015

Bad Obsession said:
Where is the line when the weather turns from good sailing to Heavy Weather?

When the joy leaves, and it just becomes a job.

Kings Gambit · Sep 25, 2015

Bad Obsession said:
Where is the line when the weather turns from good sailing to Heavy Weather?

I think that each person has their own definition of this. It is based on your boat, you sailing grounds, your experience, and the actual conditions. I think that a lot of us are guilty of overestimating the wind.

For me, with my Compac 23 and the sailing grounds being the Chesapeake Bay/Potomac River area, I consider heavy weather to be when the wind speed is getting around 20 knots sustained. 15-20 is a good bit of wind in a 23. If you are in an area with a good bit of fetch the waves are nasty in 20+ knots of wind. 25 knots is very windy.

My past trip I sailed in 20 sustained gusting to 25 for a while. The key was I was on the Windward side of the area this was happening so there wasn't much fetch. I was still sailing with a single reef and a partly rolled up 110.

How about you? What are your definitions?

Actually, I think one needs to make a distinction between high wind and "heavy weather." A boat with reduced sail, say reefed mainsail and no. 4 jib, or if sailing on a cutter using the stay sail with reefed main, could sail reasonably comfortably in high wind, even up to perhaps 40 kt, if not being knocked around by seas at the same time; say, as in protected waters. Less wind in higher seas might be regarded as "heavy weather" sailing, etc., to many.

Charlie Jones s/v Tehani · Sep 25, 2015

25 foot boat three weeks ago..Single reefed main, reefed jib, wind a solid 20, gusting a bit higher.

BUT

We were in a bay, and could have reached a sheltered spot in a short while. There, it was fun.

The same set up in the open Gulf Of Mexico would be way different.

Link to video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wXn6y6WoDQ&feature=youtu.be

25yearslater · Sep 25, 2015

This is an interesting question not unlike the one I posed a few weeks back. http://forums.oday.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=174653 As Jack says it depends on many factors. I would add water depth, maneuvering room, think lee shore or obstructions, and what is the way out of a bad situation. Obviously the boat, crew or passengers all factor in. How steep are the waves, the interval, and what combination of sails are available to deliver the power to drive to windward and not overpower the boat. By the way I did sit that weekend out and cut grass instead. Kings Gambit has some good offshore experience and an exceptionally well built boat yet would not attempt what was forecast in the area in question.

capta · Sep 25, 2015

For me it's when I begin to be concerned for the equipment.
On a beat that might be 10 knots or more sooner than on a reach, which might be 10 knots or so more than a run.
Basically I've little concern for my gear below 30 knots to weather unless the seas are abnormally large, so that might put me at about 50 on a down wind sail. On one trip to Bermuda we were running under staysail in about 70 knots and this boat did just fine.

Daveinet · Sep 25, 2015

Definently a lot of variables. I was out in 25 to 30 on a large lake. While the crew had never been sailing before, they were not new to water/boating. We did ok and my trust in the boat grew significantly. We were nearly the only boat on the water, so no obstructions or hazards. We actually sailed all the way up to the dock - no motor. Now in contrast, a few weeks back I went out by my self with winds 20 to 25. I was on a small lake, with tons of other boats around. I decided I was way to busy to be having fun, so I turned in. I would probably not go out again in those conditions unless I had another experienced person with me and less boats on the water. A bigger lake would be lot different.

WayneH · Sep 26, 2015

Location weighs heavily on this. I've sailed in a few different places with my boat. Some are a blast with 20knots of winds, some are a horror with 15knots.

We were sailing down the Chandeleur Sound a couple of years ago and decided that sailing to windward in 25-30knots was not happening. So while we were anchored, we stuffed the bow into a couple of waves rolling up the sound.

That was another time when the Normally Wrong Service failed us. They predicted 10-15 from the southeast and we got 25-30 from the southwest. And the next morning the water was glass smooth.

richk · Sep 27, 2015

The line varies from day to day. Yesterday we were returning after a nice night on the hook. It took an hour to get the boat into the slip, 25-30 knots pushing us into shallows with a component keeping us out of the slip. Finally got in by turning 180 in the shallows and approaching with slip to starboard. Oh, and, slip clearance is 4" on each side. Ended up using the Lewmar 46 main winch with a piling line to get us past the pilings. Good times!

Crazy Dave Condon · Sep 27, 2015

Bad Obsession;

You know me as a former dealer who not only sailed in that part of the Chesapeake but also on a Rhodes 22, various Hunters and even the Com Pac 23 as I use to be a dealer for Com Pac many years ago.

Jackdaw gave some good advice but there are a few things. Your Com Pac 23 is a heavier boat and can handle rougher weather; however, the first concern should be the safety of crew and yourself first, not the boat.

Reduced sail is good and should the winds start getting up to 20 plus knots and you are near home feeling unsafe, motor in quickly. If the waves get too big, go in. If the waves are not rolling waves but close together and the ride is not enjoyable, go in. Do not heel over 12-14 degrees. However, 25 knots or more, I would suggest go in. In other words, use your noggin with respect to all on board based on your experience level.

I had a young couple who came up to Smith Mt. Lake when I was introducing the new twin rudder beneteau I think 20 or 21. It was early winter but long range forecast was for good weather. It turned on us during the sail. Although the fellow was at the helm, he had the mainsail touching the water and thought it was safe. His wife was turning white when I took the helm from him, went back in and read him the riot act as his wife was crying from fear. Otherwise, she would divorce him. He left with his tail between his legs. Years later I saw that couple with two children and I got a hug from his wife thanking me for chewing butt out saving their marriage which turned out great. They came to see me when he apologized and wanted my advice on a boat which he bought from me and asked that I teach him. I thanked God that he worked on that fellow.

Everyone is going to give you an opinion but in the end, long range forecast and if caught out there on the Bay, keep your senses reducing sail and motor in.

Scott T-Bird · Sep 27, 2015

I've been away from the boat for too long so I drove down to Barnegat yesterday (Saturday) to sail single-handed. When I got there about 10 am the wind was 20 to 25 knots from NE based on my sensor. Even with a long fetch, waves don't look intimidating, but there is absolutely nobody on the bay. It was as empty as empty can be. Thinking that there must be something that everybody else knows that I don't know about, I decided to stay put and find other things to do on the boat. A dock neighbor came by at about 12:30 and we chatted for awhile. He said he had been further up the bay to crew on a friends boat for a race that was being held. He said the race was still on, but his skipper decided to back-out.

I said that it doesn't appear too windy to sail, and he agreed but wasn't unhappy about the decision, either. I said I wanted to go, but being unfamiliar with docking at my new location, I was nervous about handling it alone ... it's pretty exposed. We're both pointed into the wind (on this day) so he said getting out would be easy with the wind just pushing the boat out. All it takes is a good thrust with the engine to point out after clearing the pilings.

I would have liked to sail with my neighbor but by that time I had to leave early for a dinner party so time had run out and it also seemed that he had to go as well. (I wasn't grumbling too much - but that is why Sue didn't come with me!). It seemed that the wind had lessened in the afternoon, as I was starting to see more teens on the display. That didn't help my disposition as I was pulling out of the parking lot!

justsomeguy · Sep 27, 2015

Scott T-Bird said:
snip- Thinking that there must be something that everybody else knows that I don't know about, I decided to stay put and find other things to do on the boat. -snip

Warren Milberg · Sep 27, 2015

It's like the Supreme Court definition of pornography: you know it when you see it.

JK_Boston_Catalina310 · Sep 27, 2015

This is a very timely post for us. We are currently on the hook in Sandy Hook waiting for a weather window to sail down the New Jersey coast. It looks like we have to wait until next Monday!

The factors we take into account are the strength of the wind, the direction of the wind compared to our course, the wave height and most importantly the period.

For wind strength we won't leave port if it's over 35 kts. As others said, that's when it stops being fun for us and becomes work. If we do end up sailing in over 35 kts, and it's happened more than I would like, it's a double reefed main with the head sail reefed to about 50% of the fore angle (reefing below that and the shape is just too poor for us to get any use out of). If we are going to be beating into it all day that over 15 kts makes us think about staying another day. But that's something we are working through as new full time cruisers. When we were working, we might motor sail into those 15 kts winds to get some place or change where we were heading to be a better course by the wind.

Wave height is a tough thing to judge alone. I have had great days sailing in 12 foot waves and absolutely awful days in 5 foot waves. Five foot waves in Buzzards Bay when it's wind against current and you are pounding into them can be awful. Literally we have had days were the period between waves is around a second. So you are just pounded no matter what course you are going. While a 12 foot swell on 14 second periods will pass almost unnoticed. And when you get confused seas, forget it.

Yesterday we had a short 18 nm sail down the Hudson to Sandy Hook. We had 5-18 kts of wind on a beam reach and 1-2 foot waves coming down the Hudson and it was great. We got under the Verrazano Bridge and the wind and the seas started to build. We ended up in 20-30 kts of wind and ver confused seas. You would be getting 4-6 foot waves on 5-7 second periods on our bean but while in trough of the 4-6 foot waves you would have a 3-4 foot wave coming at your bow. It was fun for a short 1.5 hour sail and we were making 6-7.5 kts with a single reef in the mainsail and about 90% of the foretriangle on the genny. But we were healing over to 30-35 degrees most of the time which is way too much on a modern hull cruising boat. I loose speed when healed over 15-20 degrees. So I really should have reefed more.

We are waiting out the weather because the forecast for the New Jersey coast is 10-55 kts of east to northeast winds with seas 4-11 feet on 5-6 second periods over the next week. Not fun. Even the days with lower winds have high seas forecast, some days higher seas than the winder days. There are only really three accessible ports between Sandy Hook and Cape May. All three are fairly narrow rivers that can get nasty in east winds with high swell. So if something goes wrong there is nowhere to duck in with risking a dangerous inlet. Rumor from a friend that lives in one of these bays it that the local Coasties rolled a patrol boat yesterday and broke off their antennas. That sounds a little rough for us.

The answer might be to go a lot further off shore before the waves buildup on the shelf. But they are predicting high winds and seas there too.

So we have decided to stay put. Nice beaches here. Some friends are here as well so we are having fun. We may run for a more covered spot for Friday and Saturday when the winds are predicted to hit 55 knots.

Just to continue this long response, 5 years ago we sailed a 24 foot C&C. The first year we didn't go out in over 15 kts of wind. We preferred 5-10 kts. As the years with that boat passed we went out in higher and higher winds and eventually got to the point that we would go out in 20 kts. But it wasn't really fun. When we went to the 31 footer we got slab reefing and roller furling. That changed our thoughts on sailing in heavier weather. It wasn't as bad with the tools to safely reef without leaving the cockpit. So maybe adding these to your boat might help your enjoyment in heavier weather.

Fair winds,

Jesse

Ward H · Sep 27, 2015

Bad Obsession said:
Where is the line when the weather turns from good sailing to Heavy Weather?

I think that each person has their own definition of this. It is based on your boat, you sailing grounds, your experience, and the actual conditions.

I agree and was thinking about this last week. This is my 3rd full season and I have grown comfortable sailing in winds that would have kept me in my slip my first two seasons.

Last week I sailed twice in 18 to 22 knots with gusts to 26 and a long fetch. The chop was the tallest I’ve seen yet, tall enough I was worried the OB would be drenched in a breaking wave when I motored directly downwind to get into my home channel. My 9.9 OB normally pushes my boat a max of 5.6 knots. That day my downwind speed was 7.4 knots. Quite a push from the wind and waves.

I sailed in those conditions with reefed main, 25% of my jib and the traveler down. I was heeled 20 to 30 d the entire time. In gusts I would bear off to keep from heading up. I learned to feel when the rudder was just about ready to break loose.
I was wondering if these were max conditions for my boat and while I enjoyed the experience I was also glad that I was never more than 2 – 3 miles from my dock and I was very glad I did not need to motor into that wind and chop for more than a few minutes to drop the main, that was a rough ride I didn’t enjoy but was able to handle.

So for me, my boat and my location, that is heavy weather.

Kings Gambit · Sep 27, 2015

With all due respect to everyone, it's hard to see some of the conditions mentioned herein as constituting "heavy weather." Uncomfortable conditions for some, yes; perhaps even bordering on hazardous, but hardly "heavy weather." A 17 to 21-kt wind is but a "Fresh Breeze" by the Beaufort scale; hardly a reason to fear conditions. Yes--a steep wind chop of as little as 3-4 ft is not a fun thing to sail or power through. I don't particularly like it. Sailing in gale-force conditions is closer to the mark, however. "Heavy weather" is typically associated with the passage of a low pressure system, especially if near, where the seas are kicked up to frightening heights with howling wind and the decks awash with green water!! When you start thinking about sea anchors & storm trysails--THAT'S heavy weather!! Frankly, I've not experienced those conditions myself, nor wish to. BUT--you can read all about it from those who have!!

All U Get · Sep 27, 2015

JK_Boston_Catalina310 said:
This is a very timely post for us. We are currently on the hook in Sandy Hook waiting for a weather window to sail down the New Jersey coast. It looks like we have to wait until next Monday!

Fair winds,

Jesse

We're in Port Washington and it looks more like next Wed for us. Ida?

All U Get