Buying boat, narrowed to 3 options

[SFS]

Hi all, brand new member (though I've read most of the threads in the first 25 pages or so over the past month). My wife has just learned to sail through our yacht club. She likes it enough that we are considering honing her new skills and my rusty ones on a boat of our own, with an eye towards cruising at some point later on.

After much research, talking with friends in the club, and marveling at the resources available to Catalina owners, we are about to pull the trigger, likely on a C30. There are lot of them available in SW Florida, and we have three for sale in our club alone. A 1975 (std. rig, 5'3" draft, Yanmar 2GM20F), a 1978 (Tall rig, shoal draft 4'6", Yanmar 20HP), and a 1988 (std. rig, 5'3" draft, Universal 23hp, lots of bells and whistles). These boats range in price from $7500 to $20K.

Primary differences between the boats are those you would expect - condition and features (mostly electronics). Before I spend money on a survey (or two), what advice would you give me on what electronics are going to be important on a "learning" boat that will be mostly day-sailed, with one or two overnights a month at first. (Overnights would likely be on the hook to get a feel for what that is like, so AC is less important to me than if I was putting in at marinas.)

I'm thinking about things like chartplotters, autopilots, etc. The stuff that is nice to have, but may not be absolutely necessary for sailing. They will eventually break, so you need to be able to reply on other things when they do. But I also wonder about things like roller furling headsails (which I really want, as I may single hand this boat quite a bit) and the merits of one reefing system vs. another.

Now for the heresy part: also in the mix (and in the club) is a 1983 Hunter 31 Legend. Its major advantage over the others is a 2 year old Yanmar with only 190 hours, although the boat also has a GPS/chartplotter. Asking price is about $12K. What are the differences in sailing characteristics between these two boat designs?

Any other thoughts on our quest are encouraged and appreciated.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Try this link for information on the Hunter 31.

http://sailingmagazine.net/article-1464-hunter-31.html

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

Couple of suggestions in order of importance:

Stop reading the brand name. Rather, look at condition and past maintenance.

Ignore the electronics now. All you NEED is a depth sounder. A small chart plotter will also serve a useful purpose. Before considering electronics, focus on the important (and expensive) stuff like winches, traveller, engine reliability, sail condition, etc...

 

[Kings Gambit]

Couple of suggestions in order of importance:

Stop reading the brand name. Rather, look at condition and past maintenance.

Ignore the electronics now. All you NEED is a depth sounder. A small chart plotter will also serve a useful purpose. Before considering electronics, focus on the important (and expensive) stuff like winches, traveller, engine reliability, sail condition, etc...

I agree w/ that. My first cruising boat was a Pearson 30 that my wife and I sailed around Tampa Bay and all points generally between Ft. Myers (Pine Island Sound) and Dunedin for 11 years. No electronics except an old Loran C that didn't work well, and a depth finder. The good things about the P-30 were its 5-ft draft, encapsulated keel, and spade rudder. This particular one had been refitted with wheel (quadrant) steering b/f we bought it; so all of that cockpit room that had been put there for a tiller became available for lounging, etc.

The encapsulated keel was a good feature where groundings happen a lot. We probably "grounded" on average 3 times annually (on an 11-yr average of 40 slip departures/year), ranging in severity between a "light touch or scrape", to a " hard plump", to running at nearly full speed into a mud bank, etc. Eastern Tampa Bay is shallow and you have to find your way into the coves/marinas via the marked channels or risk grounding. So, a good pair of binoculars and a paper chart is your friend, or a hand-held GPS nowadays. Be sure you know how your depth sounder is calibrated (i.e., water depth vs below keel depth). A 30-ft boat that's been sailing in TB for more than 30 yr, if it ever went anywhere, has probably "touched down" a few times--that would be worth looking for in a survey.

 

[SFS]

Couple of suggestions in order of importance:

Stop reading the brand name. Rather, look at condition and past maintenance.

Ignore the electronics now. All you NEED is a depth sounder. A small chart plotter will also serve a useful purpose. Before considering electronics, focus on the important (and expensive) stuff like winches, traveller, engine reliability, sail condition, etc...

Sage advice Don. I am definitely in the camp of buying a boat that works the way it is now, rather than succumbing to the false economy of a "project boat" that just soaks up money.

BTW, I didn't mean to imply that I'm absolutely set on a C30. There just seem to be a plethora of them in the price range we are willing to spend. We'd like to keep a "training" boat to under $10K. I've seen less expensive boats of course, but with outboards, which I'd like to avoid, or with a lack of roller furling jibs, or in obviously neglected condition.

KG - thanks for your response as well. I have done a lot of power boating in very shallow areas, and am familiar with the fact that this area is skinny water. That perhaps makes the shoal draft copy of the C30 more attractive, in a tie-breaking situation.

 

[jimmcgee]

With older boats I'd always favor a "well loved" boat over a "fixer upper" even if it costs a few extra boat bucks. A boat that's been maintained will have fewer hidden surprises to bite you down the road.

Give weight to the really expensive items: engine, sails, canvas, structural issues. And beware of any boat that has a cobbled up electrical system, which can be a nightmare to troubleshoot.

As for electronics we just had the basics for the first few years with our boat: depth, wind speed, a Garmin handheld and a paper chart. And our boat came with a wheel pilot which has been great to have.

As a Catalina 30 owner I'd say there are some advantages over other boats of a similar age. The Catalina is a stiff boat that likes to sail on her feet and that can be good when learning. There's also a TON of info out there on these boats (this site is a good example). With almost 7,000 boats sold you can find information about any project you want to tackle. If you can think of it someone has done it.

Brand specific parts are readily available through Catalina and through CatalinaDirect.com. Catalina does a good job of supporting owners of older boats. That's not something you can say about every brand.

 

[MitchM]

i'd go with the one with the engine which is in best shape: low engine hours and well maintained. the yan 2GM20F is a great engine if treated well and supplied with clean fuel, it is easy to get service. a 20year old boat with an engine with 2000 hours on it may give you more trouble than it's worth. we bought a 15 year old boat with 2500 hours on the engine --- and within 2 years needed a major rebuild costing several thousand dollars...

 

[jrowan]

I'm in agreement about a boat with a recently replaced motor being an attractive asset. I would avoid very early year C-30's as they have mild steel keel bolts & chain plates & are likely holding on to a lot of worn out parts. Later C 30's use true stainless steel keel bolts, chain plates, & upgraded designs over the decades. The bigger the diesel the better. The M25 being the best option for the C30. If you can talk down the Hunter 31 with a new engine to around 10k that sounds like a winner. But sails are also very expensive to replace so sail all the boats you are interested in & scrutinize the sail condition. Roller furling headsails are a must & are expensive to retrofit. Wheel steering also important, as a tiller steered boat will wear you out after a few hours of steering. Good luck & enjoy the hunt. Also never offer full price, as most sailors are selling to save money on slip fees & maintenance, so its not just selling the boat to make money, but selling it to save $$. Like they say, the best day of boat ownership is buying & selling your boat. LOL.

 

[mortyd]

please understand that these are NOT the same basic boats. over the years, all kind of changes have been made by catalina to the boats they produced. the international catalina 30 association has a chronological list of these changes on its website. proabably the biggest, but far from the only, change in the range of boats you are considering are the change to the markII. a BIG change. of the three boats you are considering, only the 88 will not be vulnarable to 'catalina smile,' a fairly big deal.

 

[SFS]

I'm in agreement about a boat with a recently replaced motor being an attractive asset. I would avoid very early year C-30's as they have mild steel keel bolts & chain plates & are likely holding on to a lot of worn out parts. Later C 30's use true stainless steel keel bolts, chain plates, & upgraded designs over the decades. The bigger the diesel the better. The M25 being the best option for the C30. If you can talk down the Hunter 31 with a new engine to around 10k that sounds like a winner. But sails are also very expensive to replace so sail all the boats you are interested in & scrutinize the sail condition. Roller furling headsails are a must & are expensive to retrofit. Wheel steering also important, as a tiller steered boat will wear you out after a few hours of steering. Good luck & enjoy the hunt. Also never offer full price, as most sailors are selling to save money on slip fees & maintenance, so its not just selling the boat to make money, but selling it to save $$. Like they say, the best day of boat ownership is buying & selling your boat. LOL.

We are going to look at the Hunter again this afternoon (my wife has not yet seen it). The newer engine is indeed attractive. We have already decided that wheel steering and roller furling headsails are a must. This boat has been on the market for a while, and I know what the slip fees are, so I would definitely make an offer.

Please keep the thoughts coming, they are most helpful.

 

[mortyd]

before i bought my boat i read a thorough report on whether boat owners would buy the same brand of boat they currently own a second time. the overwheming majority said they would, except for hunter owners. there's plenty of catalinas, beneteaus, pearsons, o'day's, cals, sabres...... out there to chose from.

 

[SFS]

Can anyone recommend a surveyor in the Tampa area? I think we are going to put in an offer tomorrow.

 

[Terry in Naples]

As you try to choose remember there is a reason there are so many Catalinas. They have been tested over time and make great forgiving sailboats and that is probably the reason they hold their values.better than many similar boats. Having owned a couple other brands i feel that my Catalina is a great, well thought out, great sailing and comfortable boat. I am very satisfied.

 

[dave_and_dd]

Can anyone recommend a surveyor in the Tampa area? I think we are going to put in an offer tomorrow.

I used Rick Shelley. He did a great job for us on our Catalina 309 earlier this year...

Dave - Tampa, fl

 

[Kings Gambit]

before i bought my boat i read a thorough report on whether boat owners would buy the same brand of boat they currently own a second time. the overwheming majority said they would, except for hunter owners. there's plenty of catalinas, beneteaus, pearsons, o'day's, cals, sabres...... out there to chose from.

Yeah--one hopes by the second, or at least the third, boat you know what you really want. Before I even owned my first boat I joined a sailing club in the Tampa Bay area and initially chartered from a local business to tag along on some of the cruises. Four years a member b/f we bought the 1st cruising yacht, a P-30, from a member of that club who was moving up to a larger Cal yacht. So, it was a purchase of opportunity: good price, good condition, and with the previous owner nearby to consult with occassionally, etc. The Bavaria we have now was also a purchase of opportunity [good price and good condition] since I had never laid eyes on one at all b/f seeing the model I eventually bought in CA. I would buy another Pearson but only one particular model; and I would buy another Bavaria, but again, only one particular model that would suit my needs. Both models being of 42 ft. There's not all that much difference in vessel quality/features among these yachts; not seen until you go "up a notch or two" in base price. For example, Island Packet, Swan, Hanse, Tartan, Moody, Hinkley (two notches, there), etc. A Catalina is a Catalina, a Hunter, a Hunter, etc., but neither is a Swan!!

 

[mortyd]

oh yeah? in our club we have sabres and tartans and island packets which seem to have lots of problems most of the time while the catalinas in the club just keep chugging along.

 

[Kings Gambit]

oh yeah? in our club we have sabres and tartans and island packets which seem to have lots of problems most of the time while the catalinas in the club just keep chugging along.

One of the biggest concerns I had when I bought the Bavaria, the boat I own now, at only 4 years old, was whether or not I had the discipline and wherewithal (= knowledge, craftsman skill, and $$/time) to maintain it properly, i.e., to maintain its value, if you will. It's often been said, "Big boats--big problems; little boats--little problems." It probably doesn't matter the class of a yacht--all will deteriorate at a rate inversely proportional to the quality (workmanship & materials) of original construction and quality of maintenance. [Nothing profound there!] So, it doesn't mean that an expensive yacht of 15 to 20 yr whose engine, bottom, or rigging has not been well maintained, is no better than a much less expensive one of comparable age where maintenance has been good, perhaps even impeccable. The latter may prove the better purchase at age, however. One doesn't know until comparing at the end when the boat is finally sold: what did this (Catalina) boat cost me to own over my 15 yr of ownership versus what this other (Swan) boat would have cost, etc. Who knows?

 

[jwing]

I've sailed most of the Caribbean with a depth sounder as the sole bit of electronic gear. I used whatever paper charts and magnetic compasses were aboard the chartered boats. Never had a problem.

I now own a daysailor and I don't even have a depth sounder; I use a paper chart and avoid the areas that are too shallow. I don't feel the need or the desire for any electronics, whatsoever. All that data just interferes with the joy of sailing.

 

[SFS]

Thanks for all the responses. We went with the Hunter. I look forward to being active on these forums, they are a wealth of information and inspiration.