Steaming Light Question

[Hobopacket]

Rule 25 - Sailing Vessels Underway and Vessels Under Oars Return to the top of the page

(a) A sailing vessel underway shall exhibit: Sailing Vessel Underway

(i) sidelights;
(ii) a sternlight.

(b) In a sailing vessel of less than 20 meters in length the lights prescribed in Rule 25(a) may be combined in one lantern carried at or near the top of the mast where it can best be seen.Sailing Vessel Underway

(c) A sailing vessel underway may, in addition to the lights prescribed in Rule 25(a), exhibit at or near the top of the mast, where they can best be seen, two all-round lights in a vertical line, the upper being red and the lower green, but these lights shall not be exhibited in conjunction with the combined lantern permitted by Rule 25(b).Sailing Vessel Underway

(d) (i) A sailing vessel of less than 7 meter in length shall, if practicable, exhibit the lights prescribed in Rule 25(a) or (b), but if she does not, she shall exhibit an all around white light or have ready at hand an electric torch or lighted lantern showing a white light which shall be exhibited in sufficient time to prevent collision. Sailing Vessel Underway less than 7meters

(ii) A vessel under oars may exhibit the lights prescribed in this rule for sailing vessels, but if she does not, she shall exhibit an all around white light or have ready at hand an electric torch or lighted lantern showing a white light which shall be exhibited in sufficient time to prevent collision.Vessel Under Oars


This is from the coast guard current nav lights regulations.
So still the same.. steaming light MAY be used.

I am seeing this right????

 

[JK_Boston_Catalina310]

I am seeing this right????

No you're not. As soon as you start your engine you are now a power driven vessel and all of those rules apply. You are only a sailboat when you are actually sailing.

 

[Capt jgw]

Right. Sailboat and Sailing Vessel are not the same thing. You are only a Sailing Vessel ìf you are under sail alone, no engine running. If your engine is running, you are a power boat and must show a steaming light.
I teach a USCG Captain license class, and I'm always amazed how many sailors get this wrong. They can't pass the exam til they get it right, because those kinds of questions are always on the test.

 

[MrBill_FLL]

On distance races, we will start the engine in neutral to charge the battery bank.

by USCG regs, at night, We should be showing a streaming light? (again, during a sailboat race, when we are sailing/racing).

if true, wouldn't that be misleading to other boats? since we are powered by sail.

(vs, motor-sailing when we would have powerboater rights)

 

[weinie]

Right. Sailboat and Sailing Vessel are not the same thing. You are only a Sailing Vessel ìf you are under sail alone, no engine running. If your engine is running, you are a power boat and must show a steaming light.
I teach a USCG Captain license class, and I'm always amazed how many sailors get this wrong. They can't pass the exam til they get it right, because those kinds of questions are always on the test.

not according to colregs as I just learned in this thread
http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=173931

 

[JK_Boston_Catalina310]

If your engine is on YOU ARE A POWER DRIVEN VESSEL! Position of the gear shift does not change the designation.

The same applies to a power boat drifting with the engines on and in neutral. They don't have any additional rights just because they are in neutral. The engine is available for immediate maneuvering therefore you are a power driven vessel. If they are the give way vessel they are required to put their boat in gear and give way.

Same for a sailboat with the engine on.

I am a 50 ton master with sailing and commercial towing endorsement. This exact question was on my test.

 

[Capt jgw]

The boat drifting in neutral is covered in the rules, it's called "underway, not making way". The boat sailing in neutral is not mentioned. The rules says "if propelling machinery is being used". If you call the whole engine propelling machinery, and it's now charging batteries, it's being used. If you only consider the transmission to be propelling and it's in neutral, then I guess you're sailing. The rules were never meant to be taken this literally. They were meant to be used in court after the collision to decide blame, which puts it all up to how good your lawyer is opposed to the other guy's.
There is another rule that says you must use all means available to avoid collision. If you could have avoided one by putting the boat in gear, I'm sure the court would rule that you should have done so, and therefore are at fault. Power Driven Vessel.

We get the question about racing with the engine running quite often. It could be said that it would depend on who the other vessel is. If its another race boat, then you're not allowed by the race rules to put the engine in gear. You would then be covered by the race rules and remain a sailing vessel. If you're in a collision situation with a vessel not involved in the race, then COLREGS would apply and consider yourself power driven. To hell with the race at that point, save your life and your boat.

By the way, 200 Ton Master with sail and towing, Approved Instructor and Proctor.

 

[JK_Boston_Catalina310]

The boat drifting in neutral is covered in the rules, it's called "underway, not making way". The boat sailing in neutral is not mentioned. The rules says "if propelling machinery is being used". If you call the whole engine propelling machinery, and it's now charging batteries, it's being used. Of you only consider the transmission to be propelling and it's on neutral, then I guess you're sailing. The rules were never meant to be taken this literally. They were meant to be used in court after the collision to decide blame, which puts it all up to how good your lawyer is opposed to the other guy's.
There is another rule that says you must use all means available to avoid collision. If you could have avoided one by putting the boat in gear, I'm sure the court would rule that you should have done so, and therefore are at fault.

By the way, 200 Ton Master with sail and towing, Approved Instructor and Proctor.

OK capt but a boat under way, not making way gets no special rights. So it is either a stand on vessel or a give way vessel based on its position to other vessels on the water. If they are the give way vessel, they would be required to engage the transmission and move out of the way. Making way or not plays no role in the pecking order.

In fact making way is only discussed under lights and sound signals. No bearing on the pecking order.

And this line "The rules were never meant to be taken this literally" makes no sense. The rules dictate who is at fault. Sure a lawyer will try to argue around them but if you plow into someones stern you would have to be able to prove the person you hit departed from the rules to not be at fault.

 

[Kings Gambit]

If your engine is on YOU ARE A POWER DRIVEN VESSEL! Position of the gear shift does not change the designation.

The same applies to a power boat drifting with the engines on and in neutral. They don't have any additional rights just because they are in neutral. The engine is available for immediate maneuvering therefore you are a power driven vessel. If they are the give way vessel they are required to put their boat in gear and give way.

Same for a sailboat with the engine on.

I am a 50 ton master with sailing and commercial towing endorsement. This exact question was on my test.

This squares with the starting sequence of most sailboat races. When the "P" (Preparatory, or About to Sail) flag is raised at four minutes b/f the starting gun, all engines are supposed to be shut OFF, if not already off. All yachts would then be under sailing right-of-way rules. Thus, all skippers starting should be able to anticipate the movements of all other yachts at the starting line based on those rules, and only those rules.

With the modern diesel engines, however, ones that do not need a glow plug, there is only about 2 seconds of difference in time between sailing with the engine off versus on. Just the amount of time it takes to reach down and turn the key for just an instant. Theoretically, any sailing yacht could power on in 2 seconds and a clear away to avoid collision. Once again, however, it's what the OTHER GUY thinks you're going to do that counts, based on expectations from the rules. If I'm sailing with engine on in idle, and the other guy thinks I should hold my course b/c it appears to him that I'm a sailboat under sail, then that's what I should be doing. NOT trying to avoid him as if I'm a power boat approaching his port side for a crossing.

 

[Capt jgw]

And that's the whole argument about the steaming light. What does the other guy think you're doing. If your steaming light is on, you're telling him you're a power boat. If its off, you're saying you're a sailing vessel. You should do what you say to avoid confusion. The problem is many sailors think they're supposed to run the steaming light all the time, and a couple of the posts here gave that impression. I tell my sailor students who have a problem with this concept "Your steaming light should be wired to your engine ignition switch so it will only work when the engine is on". Of course I don't expect anyone to do that, but it usually clears up the question.

 

[Capt jgw]

OK capt but a boat under way, not making way gets no special rights. So it is either a stand on vessel or a give way vessel based on its position to other vessels on the water. If they are the give way vessel, they would be required to engage the transmission and move out of the way. Making way or not plays no role in the pecking order.

In fact making way is only discussed under lights and sound signals. No bearing on the pecking order.

And this line "The rules were never meant to be taken this literally" makes no sense. The rules dictate who is at fault. Sure a lawyer will try to argue around them but if you plow into someones stern you would have to be able to prove the person you hit departed from the rules to not be at fault.

Right, not making way gets no special rights, just has a different fog signal. But it is mentioned. Why they did that I have no idea, it seems pretty irrelevant. Just another question to get wrong on the exam. Sailing with the engine in neutral is not mentioned, so it's a grey area. Are you sailing or not? I maybe used the wrong word when I said"literally" I meant they weren't meant to go into that much detail. They are a guide as to "what you're supposed to do", and if there was a collision, "who screwed up". In court the other guys lawyer is going to say you were power driven and he will probably win. In my opinion, if your engine is running you're a power boat. Turn on your steaming light and act accordingly. Your number one responsibly is not to hit the other boat. Arguing over who is give way is counter productive.

 

[Capt jgw]

I only enter these threads because it pisses me off when sailors cross my bow port to starboard with their steaming light on, then yell at me by vessel name on the radio in front of God, the Coast Guard and everyone else for not giving them way as a sailing vessel. I've been known to yell back telling them to turn the damned light off. They never get it. I figure if they won't take or pay attention in a boating safety course, maybe I can educate them here. I've had sailors in my Captain's classes who had done circumnavigations and didn't know what a steaming light meant.

 

[topcat0399]

Huh. So why the heck aren't sailboat running lights on elevators and gimbals?

Threads concerning navigation lights always give me a headache.....

 

[MrBill_FLL]

When sailing 'Usually' the starting battery switch is off from the cabin.

it would take a little longer to restart the diesel... if needed.


When in doubt, we use the tonnage rules.