Old Main New Jib Compatability?

[rardiH36]

Masthead rigged boat. Per Don, and others, and my own sailing experience, the jib is by far the most dominant sail.

I've got an old but still very structurally sound x-cut full battened mainsail.

I've decided to buy a new jib. Request for quotes have been flying to all the local lofts. For the usual 20-25kt winds I sail in, it will be 110 pct size. I won't be skimping on this purchase. Most likely I will opt for a tri-radial cut with a cloth like HydraNet. Seems to be the best in class for Dacron-like longevity and also somewhat close to mylar laminates for shape retention.

A first or second reef in the mainsail is standard for me. A fully raised mainsail happens only on about 25-30% of outings. With the mainsail reefed, my current 105 jib is generally always fully unfurled, even up to 25-30kts.

I know about the importance of trimming the jib and mainsail "as a unit" to maximize the symbiotic benefits of the airflow in the slot.

So here's the question: Will a new jib be compatible with an older (and therefore somewhat blown-out) mainsail?

 

[shemandr]

I'll chime in: The new jib will be compatible with the older main. In the scenario you describe, with the main having been reefed for 2/3 of it's flying life, and with the likeliness that the jib will be flown with a reefed main (which should be very flat), I think the jib will perform very well. The full battens should have helped mitigate the blowing out phenomenon anyway.
Ideally, they would be best made at the same time by the same sailmaker. But I would say that is the exception rather than the rule.

 

[dvd]

The new job in the mast head jib driven boat like you have will increase you pointing ability and overall performance exponentially. I say this from experience. I have been luckyenough to afford new mains and new jibs on older headsail driven boats. However since I'm a sailor and therefore cheap, I usually buy them at different times. When you get a new main on a boat like this you don't feel to much difference. But when you get a new jib you can really feel it. Best bang for your buck in your case is to get the new jib.

 

[rardiH36]

dvd and shemander:

The type of testimonial based upon experience I was looking for!

I'm just about to make the new sail commitment.

 

[Jackdaw]

Most likely I will opt for a tri-radial cut with a cloth like HydraNet. Seems to be the best in class for Dacron-like longevity and also somewhat close to mylar laminates for shape retention.

Not scrimping indeed. Have you actually asked for a quote for a Hydranet sail?

Its basically woven Dyneema, hugely strong, long lasting, and heavy. Also HUGELY expensive. I bet it will be 2-3x the cost of any Dacron sail, but it would blow any Dacron sail away in terms of performance or longevity.

 

[rardiH36]

Not scrimping indeed. Have you actually asked for a quote for a Hydranet sail?


Its basically woven Dyneema, hugely strong, long lasting, and heavy. Also HUGELY expensive. I bet it will be 2-3x the cost of any Dacron sail, but it would blow any Dacron sail away in terms of performance or longevity.

JackDaw: Yes. I've been actively researching the sail construction (x-cut vs. tri-radial) and sailcloth options for several weeks now. Including discussions and quotes from various sail makers and lofts. Definitely HydraNet is the most premium $ product. Contender also has a Dacron/Dyneema woven cloth. Quite a bit more reasonable in price but also way up there.


I'm just about ready to make the commitment. Tri-radial construction.


I'm generally the “OK it's good enough” type of person when balancing cost for reasonable quality. I don't need a $30 Monster HDMI cable when a $5.00 one off the internet does the same job.


But I will be going the "premium" route for this sail purchase. My rational is as follows:


I expect to be sailing with my existing boat for about 10 more years. Its a given that a Dacron only sail cloth, whether standard grade, mid-range, or premium will physically hold up for the duration. I've been sailing with 25-30 year old standard Dacron sails in +/- 25kt SF Bay winds for the eight years I've owned my without any physical failures. Amazing actually. But what I have been told and have read is that standard Dacron, say 3-4 years after a purchase, will likely have morphed into the "blown-out" category (or at least near to it) -- Even for the higher-end weaves like Warp-Drive. Upwind performance will suffer. But since the sail will still look great, I probably would just keep sailing with it ... for another 6-7 years. Because of the prevailing wind direction in San Francisco Bay, lots of close-haul sailing features in every outing. If most of my sailing more off the wind close-reach through running, retention of sail shape wouldn't be so important given it's recreational sailing that I do.


In the woven cloth category, the Dacron/Dyneema hybrids are the only cloths being touted as likely to retain a reasonable semblance of original design shape over the years. These cloths are still reasonably new to the market, so a longer term history isn't yet proven. But the concept looks logical. I've used Amsteel (Dyneema) line as shackles for my mainsheet blocks for about 4-5 years now. The one connecting the triple to the traveler is in full sun everyday. It shows no signs of UV damage or fiber breakdown due to flex. Makes sense that Dyneema would also be durable and long-term stable for sail cloth. The fabric should have decades durability. And hopefully many more years of serviceable shape retention compared to Dacron only sails.


So I will cast caution to the wind and go for woven hybrid cloth. Once in a while, just got to have faith.


I also have dug into the pros and cons of performance "cruising" laminates such as Contender's CDX. Or North's NorLam. Generally, the lofts say these will hold shape great, but after about five years or so, they are likely to start failing structurally.


As to relative cost, each loft has different features and $ correlation between the construction and cloth: But say an absolute minimum baseline for the ~105% jib for my boat is cross cut construction with a cloth like Challenge's High Modulus Dacron. Stepping up to tri-radial construction: Warp-Drive is typically ~1.5X's more expensive. CDX Performance Cruising Laminate is ~1.7X's. Fibercon Dacron/Dryneem Hybrid is ~2.4X's and HydraNet Radian is ~3.0X's.
__________________
rardi
1980 Cherubini Hunter 36
San Francisco Bay

 

[Jackdaw]

JackDaw: Yes. I've been actively researching the sail construction (x-cut vs. tri-radial) and sailcloth options for several weeks now. Including discussions and quotes from various sail makers and lofts. Definitely HydraNet is the most premium $ product. Contender also has a Dacron/Dyneema woven cloth. Quite a bit more reasonable in price but also way up there.


I'm just about ready to make the commitment. Tri-radial construction.


I'm generally the “OK it's good enough” type of person when balancing cost for reasonable quality. I don't need a $30 Monster HDMI cable when a $5.00 one off the internet does the same job.


But I will be going the "premium" route for this sail purchase. My rational is as follows:


I expect to be sailing with my existing boat for about 10 more years. Its a given that a Dacron only sail cloth, whether standard grade, mid-range, or premium will physically hold up for the duration. I've been sailing with 25-30 year old standard Dacron sails in +/- 25kt SF Bay winds for the eight years I've owned my without any physical failures. Amazing actually. But what I have been told and have read is that standard Dacron, say 3-4 years after a purchase, will likely have morphed into the "blown-out" category (or at least near to it) -- Even for the higher-end weaves like Warp-Drive. Upwind performance will suffer. But since the sail will still look great, I probably would just keep sailing with it ... for another 6-7 years. Because of the prevailing wind direction in San Francisco Bay, lots of close-haul sailing features in every outing. If most of my sailing more off the wind close-reach through running, retention of sail shape wouldn't be so important given it's recreational sailing that I do.


In the woven cloth category, the Dacron/Dyneema hybrids are the only cloths being touted as likely to retain a reasonable semblance of original design shape over the years. These cloths are still reasonably new to the market, so a longer term history isn't yet proven. But the concept looks logical. I've used Amsteel (Dyneema) line as shackles for my mainsheet blocks for about 4-5 years now. The one connecting the triple to the traveler is in full sun everyday. It shows no signs of UV damage or fiber breakdown due to flex. Makes sense that Dyneema would also be durable and long-term stable for sail cloth. The fabric should have decades durability. And hopefully many more years of serviceable shape retention compared to Dacron only sails.


So I will cast caution to the wind and go for woven hybrid cloth. Once in a while, just got to have faith.


I also have dug into the pros and cons of performance "cruising" laminates such as Contender's CDX. Or North's NorLam. Generally, the lofts say these will hold shape great, but after about five years or so, they are likely to start failing structurally.


As to relative cost, each loft has different features and $ correlation between the construction and cloth: But say an absolute minimum baseline for the ~105% jib for my boat is cross cut construction with a cloth like Challenge's High Modulus Dacron. Stepping up to tri-radial construction: Warp-Drive is typically ~1.5X's more expensive. CDX Performance Cruising Laminate is ~1.7X's. Fibercon Dacron/Dryneem Hybrid is ~2.4X's and HydraNet Radian is ~3.0X's.
__________________
rardi
1980 Cherubini Hunter 36
San Francisco Bay

I agree with everything you say here.

 

[rardiH36]

I agree with everything you say here.

Thanks, but ...

Amazing how impressions can change over a short time with only a brief conversation with someone.

Subsequent to my previous post, I did recollect some on-line references (including here on SBO) to a sail maker who specializes in using high-modulus Dacron designed by the manufacturer for x-cut sails (they have their specific one) instead applied to a mitre cut sail. I called. The long time in the business rep described how the mitre cut using this fabric allowed for really quite good shape retention over time -- even when compared against the woven Dyneema/Dacron fabrics in a tri-radial configuration.

For comparable features (i.e luff foam, uv strip, etc) this sail construction/cloth combination is significantly less $'s than a comparably featured Dyneema/Dacron tri-radial.

Hmm, maybe I do need to reconsider that a lower priced sail with say 4-5-years of reasonable shape retention might be a better alternative to still an unproved (from a history in use standpoint) more expensive cloth retaining its shape for say 10 years?

This is one of the more vexing product purchasing decisions I've encountered.

 

[Jackdaw]

Thanks, but ...

Amazing how impressions can change over a short time with only a brief conversation with someone.

Subsequent to my previous post, I did recollect some on-line references (including here on SBO) to a sail maker who specializes in using high-modulus Dacron designed by the manufacturer for x-cut sails (they have their specific one) instead applied to a mitre cut sail. I called. The long time in the business rep described how the mitre cut using this fabric allowed for really quite good shape retention over time -- even when compared against the woven Dyneema/Dacron fabrics in a tri-radial configuration.

For comparable features (i.e luff foam, uv strip, etc) this sail construction/cloth combination is significantly less $'s than a comparably featured Dyneema/Dacron tri-radial.

Hmm, maybe I do need to reconsider that a lower priced sail with say 4-5-years of reasonable shape retention might be a better alternative to still an unproved (from a history in use standpoint) more expensive cloth retaining its shape for say 10 years?

This is one of the more vexing product purchasing decisions I've encountered.

OK...

First of all, Hydranet sails are normally VERY specialized. We use them on the Open 40 we sail in Greece. They are large and ghastly expensive. But very high-perf and bulletproof even with near constant use in high breeze.

I personally would never get a set for recreational use, and in particular on a cruiser, no matter where it was sailed.

No matter if Dacron or laminate, corner-radial cut sails offer the best bang for buck re cost/performance/longevity. Laminates will outlast ANY Dacron (even radial dacron), but at a cost of being more susceptible to delamination due to abuse.flogging/etc.

I don't buy into the hooey about modern mitre cut.