Drip over Nav Station

[Jongleur]

I asked a while ago if anybody had any fix
for the drip over the nav station. A couple
of other people said they too had the same
drip and couldn't stop it.

So, here's what I've done so far:

In the first picture, you can just see the wires
hanging over the nav station.

In the third picture are the wires after I chopped
out a big hole to see where the water might be
coming from.

In the 4th picture, I have pulled the blue wire
and look what came out.

Picture 5 shows I took out the window and found
quite a hollow along the bottom of the window.
I've prepped it for filling.

 

[Jongleur]

So, here's what I did next:

I shot expanding foam into the
void. The clamps were so the
foam would not spread the inner
and outer skin.

In the next picture, you can see
that the expanding foam went
down and partially came out
the hole - as well as some screw
holes.

I put a lot of expanding foam
down the crack. I don't know
where it went.

Tomorrow I will fill the hole I
made with marine tex. I have
undercut the edges so it will
have something to bite.

Any opinions out there?

 

[nlneilson]

Ambitious project you have done well.

I just squirt silicone around the outside of the window, none required on my current boat so far.

 

[Anonymous 121765]

Jong,

If it makes you feel a little better, all of my portals have no coring all-round, just hollow.

I've dealt with leak problems since 1991. How can you tighten a portal frame on an air pocket. Catalina took alot of shortcuts in 1980. This is the biggest ***** I have with Frank Butler. I spoke with him a few times over the years & told him this.

CR

 

[Stu Jackson]

There are voids between the inner liner and the cabintop.

The trick is to seal the outside. The void does nothing.

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3601.msg19950.html#msg19950

 

[Anonymous 121765]

Stu,

Not really man. On my 1980 boat, I've re-done all the ports three times now. I used everything except for butyl. I even cut 3/16" thk. one-piece rubber to no avail.

The problems I find, is the flexing, sometimes the UV (using caulks), & the 2-part frames themselves.

By design, a two-part frame will not correctly seal all-round as we are not tightening with a torque wrench. Add to this the flexing voids & you can only tighten to a certain point until the inner/outer liners start to collapse (which kills the face-to-face alignment)or the frame itself deforms.

I also find that over time, I can tighten the screws more. This tells me the cabin sides are still collapsing. This is what happens when you go with low bidder.

My pal Len with a nice Newport 30 has the same ports & problems because there is no coring.

That's what I've seen on my boat the last 3 times & counting. If there's a better mousetrap, I'm all ears but, it will probably mean a better one piece frame. I've seen the aftermarket Plexiglas but, I'm not sold on it. No wonder my cabin top creaks when walking on it.

CR

 

[Jongleur]

It sprinkled last night and I don't see
any water in the holes. I had taped
plastic over the open window.

I decided not to fill in the big hole
today with marine tex because I want to
see if it's going to leak in a good rain first.

I put the window back in using 2 layers
of butyl. I agree with captnron that it is
difficult to get a seal with two flexing
pieces with a void between. My expanding
foam gives it some structure/resistance though. Also,
the window frame is thicker than the width
between the inner and outer pieces, so
even if you screw the screws into the flange
all the way, it isn't squeezing because it's
still wider. Does that make sense?

Interestingly, the PO had silicone, 5200 and
butyl around the windows. Desperate, he
probably was.

I'm going to rebed all my windows eventually
and I think I'll use the expanding foam on
all of them, then two layers of butyl.

That leaves the only place for water to come in
is around the glass, which has a small rubber
seal around it. What I've done there is put
some aluminum tape from aluminum frame
to the glass, about 1 inch wide. There shouldn't
be anywhere else for water to get in.

 

[jrowan]

Ron,

You analysis makes sense about why the ports ALWAYS leak.
My C-30 boat also had the voids around the forward ports that I replaced a couple of years ago. The expensive Lewmar Ocean series operable ports that I installed had a lot of thru - bolts that were thoroughly screwed together. I thought that I applied even tension when tightening. It is very frustrating when you spend a lot of $$ on a port like this, only to find out that it still leaks! So its not the ports, you have to conclude that flexing between the cabin top sides & inner liner is causing the seals to fail from excessive flexing while under load. I know that all sailboats flex, but the huge gaps around the ports & many voids in the coring really are a piss poor construction method. It's amazing that these C-30's last as long as they have, because there weren't particularly well designed & certainly weren't well built, but are similar in quality to most production boats of their era. Just glad I didn't pay big bucks for mine, & then find this out.
Sometimes I wonder how Catalina has developed the good reputation that it has. But the obviously built to a price point, & value / price is synonymous with quality. When newbies ask about whether these boats should be sailed in blue water, long offshore passages, this is why the experienced Catalina owner always says NO.

 

[Jongleur]

Here's a picture of a window frame that
shows dimpling at each screw. The PO
probably continued to screw the screws
tighter in an effort to compress the sealant.
It was impossible to do and now all the
screws around all the windows are dimpled
like this.

 

[Anonymous 121765]

JR & Jong,

You guys are correct on much of what you said. It agrees with my observations.

As for the quality in '70's & early '80's boats remember, in the mid to late seventies there was a world wide oil shortage. A good example of this is "Ted's Tupperware."
The Irwins for a number of years laid up thinner hulls. They were also called "Shadow Boats" for at night with lights on below, you could see the shadows of people walking inside.

It was also a time of low budgets for boat builders & they used & skimped where they could. Case in point, look at something located or placed on the right & left side of your boat. You will find differences if you measure closely.

Jong I had a similar thought about adding foam or even making a two fiece cutout of coring matching the opening & epoxying in place. If using the foam approach, I would recommend taking tightly rolled up newspaper & stuffing it into the voids about two inches in all around. This way, it will stop the expansion thus giving you more concentration for the foam as it expands. I believe they make an open & closed cell foam. I would use the closed cell type.

ps: I've noticed that the inner & outer fiberglass is deformed in places. I added two forward Becksen opening ports & over the hanging locker & head, the frame bottom has a 1/4" gap between it & fiberglass.

CR

 

[weinie]

My catalina ports leaked through the screw holes! Took the screws out, dipped 'em in silicone and put them back in. Problem solved.

 

[The Garbone]

My catalina ports leaked through the screw holes! Took the screws out, dipped 'em in silicone and put them back in. Problem solved.

Treating a symptom. There should be no water getting to the screws as the seal should be on the outer surface of the boat to Frame or frame to glass. The water could be coming from higher up and running down the liner if the windows are bedded in well enough.

 

[Jongleur]

I'm pretty damn frustrated now. It rained
today, but not very much and it's leaking
as bad or worse than before!!!

Doesn't anyone know how to stop this leak?
All that work didn't slow it down a bit.

I don't know where to go from here.

Cut out the whole damn underside? It can't
be coming from the window. That's completely
sealed. Stanchions are rebedded. Hand rails
are rebedded.

It's a lot of water. Where's it coming from?
It must be a long way away, but where?

Can someone help me here?

 

[The Garbone]

I did not stop my leaks until I address all the topside perforations. I backed out the screws for the interior handrails and put butyl around them and also the cabin top rail ( I only have 1).

https://svknotaclew.wordpress.com/2014/01/04/hatches-and-sinks/

 

[jimmcgee]

I'm pretty damn frustrated now. It rained
today, but not very much and it's leaking
as bad or worse than before!!!

Doesn't anyone know how to stop this leak?
All that work didn't slow it down a bit.

I don't know where to go from here.

Cut out the whole damn underside? It can't
be coming from the window. That's completely
sealed. Stanchions are rebedded. Hand rails
are rebedded.

It's a lot of water. Where's it coming from?
It must be a long way away, but where?

Can someone help me here?

Jong, could it be leaking around the traveler bolts and flowing down the headliner until it finds a place to come out?

I feel for you. Chasing water leaks is a bear of a job.

 

[jimmcgee]

I'm trying to visualize from the photos what you're dealing with (my 95 has a different window setup).

I'm thinking you could get some two inch strips of 3/16 thick fiberglass from McMaster-Carr and glue them into the void with thickened epoxy to stiffen up the window frame. After it set up you could run around the inside of the frame with a router and a pilot bit. Now you have a stiff, leak-proof window frame.

If the gap in the stock two part aluminum frame is still wider than the cabin top, you could use a nylon washer on the inside between the frame and cabin top for each screw as a filler. Now you can draw the frame tightly against the cabin top to get a better seal on the outside.

Another thought would be to do the fiberglass filler above, then create a jig to rout a recess in the exterior to accept the MK III style windows.

 

[Jongleur]

Jong, could it be leaking around the traveler bolts and flowing down the headliner until it finds a place to come out?

I feel for you. Chasing water leaks is a bear of a job.

My traveller is at the back of the cockpit.

Today, I rebedded the inner jib fairlead track. That
could be it. If not, the next culprit would be the slider
for the hatch. I'd have to take the whole turtle off
to work with that. I don't know what that would
entail.

Today was still frustrating. I'm going to rout out the
foam that I put in. Then I bought some different foam
Not sure if this will be better but it can't be worse. I'm
also going to cut out or drill more places above the nav
station to insert the foam. Maybe several holes up into
the void.

 

[nlneilson]

Take a pan or a hose you can cut the water flow way down and have someone help to see when and where your leaks are. You are doing a lot of work I would try to avoid if possible.
Luckily my boat is quite dry even in a heavy rain but a few windows are showing a small amount of water, not enough to get the silicone squirt gun out yet.

 

[Anonymous member 131]

I just posted a thread on re-bedding windows. I had the same leak and stopped it dead. You don't have to fill the sandwich void but can. Fairing works well as does life caulk. I had a broken window cowling and used PC 11 a very thick epoxy that sands easily until completely cured and it filled the void easily then I used dow corning 795 to rebed the window and no more leak.

 

[JamesG161]

The trick is to seal the outside.

Thats may seem too simple, but sometimes it is just simple!

I thought my window leaked too, but I found the leak to be the stanchion support bolts shown in your Picture #5 background-right. Although I admit yours looks well sealed.

But my point is....

You may be looking in the wrong place. I used masking tape to isolated an area and slowly poured 5 gallons of washable, food color, dyed water on unmasked areas, bit by bit-- section by section, until I saw colored water on a white towel.
Good Luck...
Jim...