PHRF Hunter 44

Ted · Jun 22, 2015

Your original PHRF rating sounds like a gift but not really knowing your specific model, equipment and max headsail size, it could be off a little. You can check out your rating at this site.

http://www.ussailing.org/wp-content...Current Base Handicap Class Hi Lo Average.pdf

Keep in mind that these ratings are tweeked according to your specific sailing area and your boat is assumed to be in racing condition. Your rating doesn't go up because you have old sails or a rough bottom.

shemandr · Jun 22, 2015

Like it or not, PHRF ratings work out to be largely based on waterline length. And Ted is correct, they assume that the boat is well prepared for racing. Smooth clean bottom. No excess gear. Quality sails. Basically the best racing trim your boat can be in. No credit for roller furling for the main or lack of battens. You can get credits in some areas for dacron sails, jibroller reefing and a few other corrections.
As for your upwind leg - doing boat speed of 6 knots and VMG of 2, I think you were in adverse current, which is not unusual in LI Sound. In current, you could have an adverse "Current Wind" of 1 to 2 knots. That is, just the current would subtract 1 to 2 knots from the apparent wind you feel. So if you are tacking upwind at about 45 degrees, which would reduce your VMG a lot, 1 to 2 knots current makes it significantly worse. Math guys on this forum could better do the numbers.

Jackdaw · Jun 22, 2015

In entry level PHRF racing, by FAR the biggest factor in how a boat does is not its rating, but how well (speed/distance) the boat sails.

Most rating changes will effect a difference of several boat lengths over a typical race. Sailing non-close hauled, sailing on the wrong board, etc will cost a boat minutes. New racers will often be off the winning pace by 10 minutes, and no rating change will help that.

My advice to new racers is:

Learn to sail fast ALWAYS.

Then learn to sail the least distance 'most' of the time.

Now you'll be close. then work on maneuvers (tacks, rounding, gibes). The final part comes as tactical boat-on-boat stuff.

Scott T-Bird · Jun 23, 2015

Race more ...

Marc, if you have a good time during the races then by all means, don't just wait till next year. You should race more often. Your skills and the skills of your crew will definitely improve.

It doesn't sound like your ego gets in the way (some people can't seem to accept finding themselves at the back of the pack, even when they are just starting to learn). If you accept that there is a learning curve and the objective is to have fun and get better along the way, there is no better way than friendly competition to improve your sailing skills and tactics. The competition gives you immediate feedback to every action and course direction you take. Other competitors are normally happy to share knowledge and advise.

It will help a lot to get to the start line on time, too!

BarryL · Jun 23, 2015

Hey,

Having fun IS the most important thing, so you are already 'winning.' If you want to improve your racing performance it's important to have the boat prepped as best as you can. This means a clean bottom, reducing windage as much as possible by lowering dodgers, bimini's, etc., reducing weight is possible (don't need 100 gallons of water in the tanks, a years worth of canned goods, 3 anchors, etc.). For sailing upwind, to maximize VMG you need to sail as close to the wind as possible (without giving up too much speed). If you have a shoal draft keel this is going to be difficult, but if you were sailing at 6 kts but only had a VMG of 2.5 you need to see if you can sail higher. How high can you point? You SHOULD be able to get to 35 degrees apparent. Did you have the boom on centerline? It's common to sheet the main in tight, then use the traveler to get the boom up to center. What headsail do you have and was it in far enough? Do you adjust the cars so the sail pulls evenly from head to foot? For downwind sailing, with a B+R rig it's going to be a challenge to sail towards the mark. Do you have a whisker pole? From your description of sailing on a reach to the lower mark it sounds like you should have been sailing deeper to minimize the distance sailed.

Lastly, get out there and race more. It's the only way to get better. There must be a weeknight race series that you can join. The more the race the better you'll do.

Good luck,
Barry

Jackdaw · Jun 23, 2015

Marc14857 said:
Thanks to all for the input.

One follow up question for Barry,

You mention to have the Boom at centerline and use the traveler to pull the boom up to the middle. As I recall I did have the boom at or close to the centerline and the traveler centered. The B&R rig includes a loose footed main and I tend to sail with a deep draft in the sail (in moderate and lighter winds) as I think I get better performance. Wondering if I should have reduced the draft of the mainsail when trying to sail tight upwind?

The two control two different things.

Deep draft adds power to the sail, but also drag. In general its a good idea to add draft as long as the 1) the mainsail luff telltails fly and 2) the boat stays on its feet.

Bringing the traveler up above CL allows the boom to be at or very near to the centerline of the boat. Once here you can adjust the mainsail twist (with the sheet) until the top telltail just starts to flicker. This gives MAX power and drive.

Do this and your main is in upwind trim.

You jib should be sheeted in so the leech angle matches the leech of your main ie;pretty tight.

Adjust your jibcar leads (and sheet) so all telltails (top to bottom) fly.

Now your jib is in upwind trim.

The driver sails so BOTH inside and outside fly, with the the inside one flickering up. Steer AWAY from a fluttering telltail.

Now you're going upwind well.

Roles:
Jib trimmer: constantly adjusts jib sheet and lead so all telltails fly.

Main trimmer: Balances helm pressure by adding main but also keeps the boat flat.

Driver: Keeps the boat on the wind.

When the breeze comes up get ready to add twist.

Forget instruments (especially VMG!!!) and learn what feels fast. Always go fast. Always. If you feel slow, ease and foot off.

Go fast.

Rick486 · Jun 23, 2015

Marc14857 said:
So for the last 3 years we've sailed in a charity event Sails Up for Cancer and really have a good time and its for a good cause. We do not usually race so the adrenaline kind of gets going for this event. Not knowing much about racing and handicaps, I was surprised that for the first two years they had our handicap at 144, which seemed kind of low for a "Stock" H44 with in mast main, no battens working jib and fixed three blade prop. Despite our best intentions we were always the last to finish and make matters worst had to give time to most of the other boats. I was even more surprised that this year they lowered our Handicap to about 120. Was wondering from those of you that do race does the Handicap seem realistic for our boat?

By the way this year we finished last again even though we had some descent wind 15KN to 20KN. I suspect we made two mistakes along the way. The first leg was an upwind leg about 3 Miles. Even though our boat speed was about 6 KN our VMG rarely got above 2.5 Knots and in some cases was actually negative. Not sure how I should be figuring most efficient tacks under those conditions other than to sail the best VMG. All suggestions welcome.

Second mistake was that we were sailing along well on a Port tack beam reach 18 Knots getting ready to gybe to starboard around the mark. As we approached the mark, I had my son sheet in the main in anticipation of the gybe but this just powered up the main and we ended up rounding up to port. By the time I recovered we were well past the mark and lost some valuable time. I'm guessing I should have started the turn to Stbd first and as the wind started to come aft, had my son sheet in in anticipation of the gybe.

The above two mistakes together with being two minutes late across the starting line put us once again very firmly in last place, but a good time was had by all.

There is always next year!

Marc:
I raced Ensigns many times in Fishers Island Sound and nearby and the biggest problem is always the current. You can easily have a negative VMG in those waters with the wicked currents.
We have never raced Maxine for fear of breaking the china and crystal stowed aboard.

Sandy Stone · Jun 24, 2015

Maybe you could bum a ride on another boat for a couple of beercan races and see if they are doing anything different than you are. Little things can add up. Or maybe invite a more experienced racer on your boat one evening. Most racers are happy to help out a beginner.

Bill19233 · Jun 25, 2015

We decided to get a PHRF rating for our Hunter 340 this year and get in a few local races. We do great on reaches, passing larger boats easily. Upwind, the whole fleet, a few rowboats, and a guy in an inner tube pass us. I've got some ideas I'm going to try in the next race.
But about our rating, I don't know why certain boats are rated higher (slower), I'm sure there are good reasons, but I am a little curious. We got a 159. In the local fleet a Beneteau 49 is 166, Hunter 38 is 163, Catalina 42 is 193, Jeanneau 379 is 191, for example. I know folding props and roller furling mains affect rating, but waterline length is 90% of it. Our Doyle APC subtracted 9 from our rating.
It isn't a big deal, though, because we are having an incredible good time and I can hardly wait for the next race. I recommend it for any one who hasn't raced to try it.

Jackdaw · Jun 25, 2015

Bill19233 said:
We decided to get a PHRF rating for our Hunter 340 this year and get in a few local races. We do great on reaches, passing larger boats easily. Upwind, the whole fleet, a few rowboats, and a guy in an inner tube pass us. I've got some ideas I'm going to try in the next race.
But about our rating, I don't know why certain boats are rated higher (slower), I'm sure there are good reasons, but I am a little curious. We got a 159. In the local fleet a Beneteau 49 is 166, Hunter 38 is 163, Catalina 42 is 193, Jeanneau 379 is 191, for example. I know folding props and roller furling mains affect rating, but waterline length is 90% of it. Our Doyle APC subtracted 9 from our rating.
It isn't a big deal, though, because we are having an incredible good time and I can hardly wait for the next race. I recommend it for any one who hasn't raced to try it.

Wow Bill, 100% true on all of this. Great job getting out there!

And as you found out, most sailors have no idea how poorly they actually go to windward until they start racing and get hammered by rowboats. Then they watch, learn, then start kicking butt themselves!

shemandr · Jun 25, 2015

Our H356 was PHRF'ed at 183, if I remember correctly. So your # of 159 seems a little low. You can make an appeal to your local PHRF committee. You need to go in with the numbers. You'll have to show them how other H34's are rated and what the sailing conditions are in those areas. This information is available through USSA, or some regional organizations such as Eastern Connecticut Sailing Association. I looked up the H34 on their site and sad for you they rate you at 163 & Shoal Draft at 172. Maybe there's someone out there kicking butt with that boat.

http://join.ecsa.net/ecsainfo/baseboatlist.aspx

Jackdaw · Jun 25, 2015

shemandr said:
Our H356 was PHRF'ed at 183, if I remember correctly. So your # of 159 seems a little low.

His boat is TEN FEET longer! That's over a knot of pure boat speed. That's 120 seconds right there.

Rick D · Jun 25, 2015

Geesh...

...reading this makes me cringe. I rate 102 before any allowances under cruising class. As I recall, the last one was 118, about 12 of which was spinnaker adjustment. I wanted to protest the rating when I got it. It seemed really low for a shoal-draft medium-displacement boat, especially comparing it to a Catalina 42 with a lot more water line which rates in SoCal exactly the same. Ten years later, I have to say that, for distance races at least, it's dead on and I have no complaint. I haven't been as successful in buoy racing tho, probably owing to crew more than anything and secondarily to not stripping the boat. I realize rating vary a lot by area, but that seems like a really big difference.

shemandr · Jun 25, 2015

Jackdaw said:
His boat is TEN FEET longer! That's over a knot of pure boat speed. That's 120 seconds right there.

Maybe my bad. I thought I was commenting on Bill19233's complaint about his H340 and it's rating of 159. Maybe I assumed the H340 is 34 feet. Of Course, a 44 ft. Hunter would rate lower (Faster) than my former and much missed H356.

Bill19233 · Jun 25, 2015

The OP has a 44, I have a 33' 6" 2000 Hunter 340. I really wouldn't say I have a complaint about my 159 rating, I'm thrilled to be participating. I'm mostly just curious about how other boats got their rating, how can I be starting behind and giving time to a Beneteau 49 at 167 and 2 Catalina 42's, both rated at 193. There are a couple Catalina 320's at 216, I could be comparable to them. These numbers aren't hearsay or speculation, they're listed on the club's website race roster. I'm sure there are valid reasons for these ratings. Like I said, just a little casual curiosity from an involved party.

I found an old 186 rating for a Hunter 340 in the local PHRF database, I was expecting somewhere around that. I have a 3 bladed Max prop and normal main with two full battens on top and a 105% jib, both original. My rating certificate says 156 base, 159 spinnaker and 168 non spinnaker corrected. The spinnaker is a 135% Doyle UPS. It's my first year, I'm new in the club. I want to see and show what I can do on the water, maybe next year I will think about an appeal. We have been an official entry in the cruising class in two 14.4 nautical mile races. 4:46:15 and 3:25:35.

Next race, I'm going to try to sail the boat flatter upwind, with less weather helm. Reef the main if I have to on the upwind legs, I rigged a better barber hauler for the jib and outhaul for the main, and I may move the vang boom attachment further aft to keep it from bottoming out and get the main flatter. I had the rig tuned a couple years ago, but the leeward shrouds were big time floppy in the last race, I may need to get it tuned again to help keep the forestay tight and straight upwind.

Any other advice?

Scott T-Bird · Jun 26, 2015

Bill, it looks like your PHRF rating is in the ballpark but all of the others aren't even close. I look at USSailing database and it shows Bene 49 at around 60, Catalinas 42 & 320 respectively at around 100 and 155 respectively. The OP's Hunter 44 should be around 114.

So somebody has the numbers all screwed-up or they are using a different system altogether or something has changed from the data base that I looked at (granted the website I found is valid for dates from 2005 to 2011) ... but the comparisons are apples and oranges, for sure.

http://www.ussailing.org/wp-content...Current Base Handicap Class Hi Lo Average.pdf

Jackdaw · Jun 26, 2015

shemandr said:
Maybe my bad. I thought I was commenting on Bill19233's complaint about his H340 and it's rating of 159. Maybe I assumed the H340 is 34 feet. Of Course, a 44 ft. Hunter would rate lower (Faster) than my former and much missed H356.

Gotcha, my bad, I didn't see we were not talking about the same boats.