What a day for FAIL....

[Maine Sail]

#1 Yesterday I get the panic call that a customers engine is making a horrible racket and the boat will barely move forward. He is stuck on an off shore island and holds the phone to the motor in forward gear. I go through all the normal trouble shooting then tell him to call Sea Tow. He instead tries to "limp it in" and winds up calling Sea Tow a mile from the marina.

When I get there the shaft is spinning free in the coupling. I can literally turn the coupling and the shaft remains still.

• PO added a PSS Seal and re-used old coupling

• Fit tolerance was lost when layer of rust broke free and they key took all the load until it finally failed.

• Shaft was not "spotted" or dimpled for the set screws

Shaft almost came out of the boat and he came very, very, very, very close to sinking. If it were not for the stainless collar of the PSS seal the shaft would have come all the way out if a traditional packing box had been used.

Moral: WHEN YOU REMOVE A SHAFT FROM A COUPLING HAVE A NEW COUPLING FITTED & FACED BY A COMPETENT SHAFTING SHOP!!! MAJOR SCARY FAIL!!!



#2 I get another panic call from a customer who was trying to replace a short 2' sanitation hose and his "white seacock elbow" broke off when he leaned against it. "Seacock elbow" was Home Depot PVC.... It broke off flush with the bronze ball valve and now I have to extricate it and install a proper bronze elbow. Lucky for him the seacock was closed!! I believe this was a factory install...

Moral: PVC IS NOT FOR SEACOCKS



#3 I am at my battery distributor around 4:15 and run into a customer. He is holding a pair of $770.00 dead Lifeline AGM's. Dead as in ZERO VOLTS for over two weeks... Last summer he had me run some calcs on a solar system to run his Engle fridge & a small muffin fan 24/7 from a 100W panel. I told him it would not work and presented him real life data logging, from his own anchorage, to back up why. He did it anyway. Apparently on the net someone told him it would work. I politely ribbed him with "I hope that guy on the net is buying you an new battery bank"...... He just laughed and said "Me too.." and ponied up $770.00...

Moral: When someone who does this work for a living, and who gave you actual data from your own anchorage, tells you what you don't want to hear, by all means get a second opinion from someone else qualified don't just go to the net with the purpose of finding someone who will tell you what you do want to hear... Sometimes what you almost 4.5X the cost of a solution that had been presented...


All of this FAIL in one day! People often wonder how I get all those pictures..... Day's like this......

 

[Ken Cross]

Maine Sail:

Some folks don't seem to learn. When I look at work done on 2 of my previous boats, nothing surprises me.

I just have to say thanks for all your willingness to provide good advice. I hope folks such as this don't discourage you from what you've done for the rest of us.

Ken

 

[Alan Gomes]

#2[/B] I get another panic call from a customer who was trying to replace a short 2' sanitation hose and his "white seacock elbow" broke off when he leaned against it. "Seacock elbow" was Home Depot PVC.... It broke off flush with the bronze ball valve and now I have to extricate it and install a proper bronze elbow. Lucky for him the seacock was closed!! I believe this was a factory install...

Moral: PVC IS NOT FOR SEACOCKS

No kidding! Too bad Ericson didn't know that "moral" because that's what they tended to install on their 1980's vintage boats. It was one of the first things I changed out on my 1984 E26-2. (And yes, it was original. Mine was not the only Ericson with this setup.)

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

First, I am neither a boat systems expert or a mechanical systems expert. Having said that, I have found that the worst, dumbest and dangerous work done on any of our boats was the result of incompetent boat yard workers.

One forgot to replace a thermostat when hired to work on an engine cooling system. He also left the housing with only gravity holding it on and, as it was below the waterline, almost sank the boat.

Another incorrectly wired a new A/C to the panel reversing the hot/neutral. It's not complicated to differentiate between white and black but this guy managed to do it.

Another so-called boat professional didn't replace the heat shield on a fuel filter leaving it sitting in plain sight under the engine.

Stupidity isn't limited to boat owners but at least they usually care more than the people hired to work on their boats.

 

[Sandy Stone]

Moral: WHEN YOU REMOVE A SHAFT FROM A COUPLING HAVE A NEW COUPLING FITTED & FACED BY A COMPETENT SHAFTING SHOP!!!

Just for future reference, how does this work on a boat like mine, where the coupling has to go on after the shaft is installed? Can you remove the coupling after it leaves the shop, then reinstall it?

 

[Charles Erwin]

Just for future reference, how does this work on a boat like mine, where the coupling has to go on after the shaft is installed? Can you remove the coupling after it leaves the shop, then reinstall it?

The machinist fits the coupler to the shaft then removes the coupler. You install it a second time - so to speak. This works just fine at initial installation in the boat. As time passes corrosion occurs at the seam between the coupler and the shaft. So when subsequently disassembled the corrosion debris is lost and the clearance between the shaft and the coupler becomes too large. This is the root cause of what Maine Sail described.

If you are interested in more detail see videos from Keith Fenner at Turn Wright Machine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyKUsnCymbY

Charles

 

[Maine Sail]

No kidding! Too bad Ericson didn't know that "moral" because that's what they tended to install on their 1980's vintage boats. It was one of the first things I changed out on my 1984 E26-2. (And yes, it was original. Mine was not the only Ericson with this setup.)

Sadly this was not just limited to Ericson. A number of builders have used PVC. This one I believe was a factory install and the owner thought is was Marelon. Tim R. had an Ericson PVC seacock fitting fracture on him too. Regardless of who installed it leaning on a seacock should not cause a failure.

 

[Maine Sail]

First, I am neither a boat systems expert or a mechanical systems expert. Having said that, I have found that the worst, dumbest and dangerous work done on any of our boats was the result of incompetent boat yard workers.

One forgot to replace a thermostat when hired to work on an engine cooling system. He also left the housing with only gravity holding it on and, as it was below the waterline, almost sank the boat.

Another incorrectly wired a new A/C to the panel reversing the hot/neutral. It's not complicated to differentiate between white and black but this guy managed to do it.

Another so-called boat professional didn't replace the heat shield on a fuel filter leaving it sitting in plain sight under the engine.

Stupidity isn't limited to boat owners but at least they usually care more than the people hired to work on their boats.

FAIL comes in all shapes & sizes and I have seen some really bad examples from boat builders, marine "professionals" and DIY's... In these examples we had two factory failures; PVC below water and non-spotted prop shafting & two DIY blunders; re-using an old coupling and using an undersized solar system and ruining a bank of batteries..

I once watched a couple of yard guys smash a gear box with a slide hammer trying to remove a shaft from a coupling. The sound of the slide hammer beating on that gear box could be heard 500 yards away clear as day. As I got closer the beating continued then one yelled "I think it moved" so the guy outside gave it one more really hard whack and then I heard the sounds of metal chunks hitting the hull and "oh $hit!".....

FAIL is not limited to just boatyards or DIY's builders & their vendors play hard in that arena too...

 

[Chris & Lenore]

One up on the "Home Depot" PVC fittings. My PO (when at Home Depot) also bought a cheap non-reinforced plastic garden hose - and used that with single hose clamps on all the smaller thru hulls.
Since rectified with bronze fittings, marine hose and double Awab clamps.

Chris

 

[Gunni]

Ever notice how few boat owners have a clue how to repair or maintain their boats BUT know exactly what a reasonable cost to do so might be? Then when they get their price, are astonished at the poor quality of the work? It would be funny if the situation wasn't so sad and dangerous.

 

[Maine Sail]

Ever notice how few boat owners have a clue how to repair or maintain their boats BUT know exactly what a reasonable cost to do so might be? Then when they get their price, are astonished at the poor quality of the work? It would be funny if the situation wasn't so sad and dangerous.

Yep, today I was working on a Little Harbor 44' Whisper Jet. Beautiful boat, super nice owner, sweet new navigation system, and when I suggested that the solar controller was not the best fit for his batteries, because it could not be programmed, he just blurted out "Well, lets install the right one.".

I went back to the shop, programmed a controller for his batteries and returned. When I got back to the boat the PWM controller was in the trash can. I suggested he could sell it on Craig's list and he agreed to put it on the swap & sell board at the club. This is an excellent customer who has never once asked how much just please do it right.

I am lucky I guess to have a lot of customers who are less worried about how much this wire tie or that screw costs than "Are you doing this correctly and with premium components?" I obviously prefer the latter because I don't enjoy lowering my working standards to meet a penny pinching budget.

 

[Benny17441]

#1



#3 [/B]I am at my battery distributor around 4:15 and run into a customer. He is holding a pair of $770.00 dead Lifeline AGM's. Dead as in ZERO VOLTS for over two weeks... Last summer he had me run some calcs on a solar system to run his Engle fridge & a small muffin fan 24/7 from a 100W panel. I told him it would not work and presented him real life data logging, from his own anchorage, to back up why. He did it anyway. Apparently on the net someone told him it would work. I politely ribbed him with "I hope that guy on the net is buying you an new battery bank"...... He just laughed and said "Me too.." and ponied up $770.00...

Moral: When someone who does this work for a living, and who gave you actual data from your own anchorage, tells you what you don't want to hear, by all means get a second opinion from someone else qualified don't just go to the net with the purpose of finding someone who will tell you what you do want to hear... Sometimes what you almost 4.5X the cost of a solution that had been presented...


All of this FAIL in one day! People often wonder how I get all those pictures..... Day's like this......

Does not surprise me, the output performance of solar panels is expressed in average hours of sunlight over a number of days. Many times reality does not resemble the averages. A 100W panel is just to small and then there are panels and there are panels. There is nothing as difficult as trying to communicate something to a person that does not want to hear. What was that saying? "Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up" I realize we all have limitations in communication but a good all "trust me on this" should have sufficed.

 

[sesmith]

Maine,

Thanks for this. I've found that even though I worked on cars professionally for a number of years, that fact just makes me dangerous on my boats. You just don't know what you don't know, and I didn't know what was involved with prop shaft removal and coupling replacement. Now I do, thanks to your post, and I've located a marine machine shop within a couple hours drive from here.

I have plans to replace the cutlass bearing on our boat this winter. The previous owner replaced the pss seal a year or 2 before I got the boat. Since he didn't get the preload tight enough, and the stainless ring also later slipped on the shaft, causing a leak, I'm doubting he knew much about coupling machining. It's too bad the cutlass bearing wasn't done at the same time, as I'll likely get to do the whole job over again.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Reinventing the Wheel

I am lucky I guess to have a lot of customers who are less worried about how much this wire tie or that screw costs than "Are you doing this correctly and with premium components?" I obviously prefer the latter because I don't enjoy lowering my working standards to meet a penny pinching budget.

Well said. On behalf of all of my business clients, I have to explain to many designers and contractors that this client is NOT interested in ONLY the lowest first cost. All too often an assumption is made that lowest first cost is the ONLY goal, when there are so many others: operational integrity, operational continuity, life-cycle costs, etc.

There is one other thing: as many of you know, Maine Sail and I have been promoting and documenting the basic boat wiring diagrams for many, many years. Both he and I have helped many folks online with links to his website and Musings with Maine Sail here on this forum, and my C34 website "Electrical Systems 101" topic.

What you may not be aware of is all the time we've both spent offline with individuals who have contacted us through email and pms.

Almost all of those respondents have "gotten the idea" finally once we patiently explain how the electrons flow.

There are two groups of what I can only call "deniers" - these are people who haven't gotten the idea that there is no need to reinvent the wheel.

1) "But if I just move this wire over to here, why won't it work?" One of my respondents actually wrote that to me, during our fifth long email.

2) The skippers in the UK who insist that it's better to have your alternator output go to the start bank instead of the house bank. I think it's because they've spent so much time with faulty Lucas starters on their cars that they think they have to charge an almost full bank first! They still don't understand the logic.

 

[Chief RA]

Trying to explain technical things to a layman is just depressing! Chief

 

[capta]

And then there is the other side of the professional coin; the incompetents. How does one protect themselves from those people?
Four refer mechanics (in two countries), upwards of $500 and it was my wife who found the problem. Fridge now works better than ever, by the way.
At one point, I was flying a refer mechanic from Ft. Lauderdale to the VI to maintain the refrigeration and A/C systems on a charter boat, because the local guys were worse than incompetent; they were outright crooks!
When one is traveling, it is hard to find that good, honest repair person in the marine industry. The internet helps, but it's often still a crap shoot.
I prefer to do all my own work whenever we can, but there are just some jobs that require more specialized tools and spares than I care to carry (refrigeration being one of them). So, every now and then I am at the mercy of whoever is available. Oh well, at least we're in a lovely anchorage, on a beautiful tropical island, so life ain't all bad.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Born as...?

Trying to explain technical things to a layman is just depressing! Chief

Only if they don't want to listen.

How many times, Chief, have you heard us say: "None of us was born an electrician?"

Sure, some folks failed high school math and can't balance a checkbook, but going back to Maine Sail's OP, it's the person who is the client who is a doofus, and our job, as technicians, are to provide them with the OPTIONS so they can make an educated decision.

If, after hearing the advantages and disadvantages of the choices available to them, they choose the one that you haven't given them, then it's your decision to walk away.

CAPTA, what is it that you wife found? Millions wanna know!!!

 

[capta]

CAPTA, what is it that you wife found? Millions wanna know!!!

After having the system swept with a sniffer a few times and the "pros" inspecting the system from stem to stern so to speak to no avail, she and I sat down to discuss possibilities. I explained that a bit of oil often indicated a refrigeration gas leak, so off she went. She found a hole in the bottom of the receiver because of a tiny bit of oil underneath. Ordered a new receiver, installed it and charged the system. Going great, for the first time in years.

 

[JamesG161]

We have an adage in the construction/repair industry that is so true when you have a client/customer shopping for best deal.

We can deliver Quality, Speed, and Price?

You get to pick and 2 of the 3.

I personally like Quality first... the second pick varies on need.

You know what would be a best seller book that you guys could write?

HOW TO DO IT RIGHT, BEFORE THE 3RD TIME

Jim...