I was that close!

justsomeguy · Jun 18, 2015

That can be done in wood, with a tapering cut.

I'm not gonna kick ya...

JohnCTV21 · Jun 18, 2015

I have a set of "Telo Aer-foil" "Taper Laminated Fiberglass" battens for my V21

Not sure how old they are.

BudGates · Jun 18, 2015

When I was a high-school kid I had this great idea of using a fan to draw air through a wet towel to cool off a room. I had it all worked out with a pump to keep the towel wet an everything. Then I moved here to the desert and learned that it was called an evaporative cooler and it has been around for about a hundred years or so. sigh....

Scott T-Bird · Jun 18, 2015

Batten technology that windsurfing rigs were capitalizing on as far back as the 80's ... maybe earlier. My North Sails were using allen wrench keys to fine tune the draft ... something that could be done on our sails if we really wanted to.

Ron20324 · Jun 18, 2015

All U Get said:
.... The next time I get an idea, somebody kick me. ...

Can we start now? There will probably be a long line

Joe · Jun 19, 2015

My 1976 Nacra 5.2 uses foam cored, tapered battens. Each of the ten battens has a quick adjust cap that allows you to easily set tension for expected conditions.

These things are not cheap (surprise) This 50"x .6" sells for $40.

Race battens for Nacra, Prindle, Hobie 20, Inter and Tornado. Constructed with uni- and bi-directional fibers in an epoxy resin and molded with extra-high density foam, Performance Catbattens are state-of-the-art batten technology. Catbatten foam battens are as strong and light as possible! They have a one-year manufacturer's guarantee against breakage. Battens help to stabilize draft position and depth through varying wind conditions. Battens should be lightweight, yet stiff enough to prevent S hooking at the leech and to maintain sail shape in gusts. Catbattens are standard equipment when supplied with Hobie 17/20, Nacra, Prindle and Inter Race Sails in the USA and Europe. The manufacturers work closely with sailmakers to optimize batten and sail compatibility. Open stock battens are 0.50" wide (7mm) and have a standardized bend curve and stiffness. To decrease stiffness, remove material from the edges (width) of the batten - See more at: http://www.murrays.com/46-5000-50.html#sthash.tJGKshmI.dpuf

woodster · Jun 19, 2015

All U Get said:
Hi all,

Sometimes I see something and it hides on the right side of my brain where I never look. Any how, the America's Cup and the high performance cats with an extra-special designed set of sails to resemble a planes wing. Well that got rattling around in my head and got lost.

A few weeks back I was reading yet another source for trimming sails. It began with the picture of a wing and described lift. Then it showed the traditional battened main, like mine, with the typical draft making an arc in the battens. Pull, stretch. twist, and release the sail to get the right draft and lift. Then I took another look at the plane wing illustration and it had more lift and less drag then the typical sail all stretch out.

That's when the pea started going around in the whistle. Now I have to say I don't have any design books sitting on a shelf and usually my ideas are out of print before I can draw them out on a napkin, but this one made sense to me.

What if the forward part of the batten was softer than the back? Then the draft would move forward and the back would be straight looking more like a plane wing. I reached for the napkins and a pen, this is going to be great.

Went to the boatyard today and they just began filling in the blisters. So my wife and I climbed the ladder and did the visual of the mess inside. I poked around and my wife did the same. We picked up a few things to take home and dropped off the few that we fixed. Then we stared at all the boats out in the water and had to leave.

Then I saw the sail loft and picked up a stanchion I bent around a piling on a fuel dock and told my wife we could ask them to bend it straight. Well they said the boatyard had a press and would do a better job. That's when both oars hit the water.

"You guys sell a lot of battens?" "Yes we do, quite a few actually." Here's when I get a little cautious. "Do have any that are a bit softer on the lead end?" "You mean one like this, a salesman just dropped it off this week." It was like having a flat tire. Wop, wop, wop, wop. :cry:

Well it was a good idea and in my mind I was that close. The next time I get an idea, somebody kick me.

All U Get

this is too funny ...i had some cortisone cream i had to put on my back right in the almost impossible part to reach ...so i thought about it and decided to get my back scrubbing brush and put a sock over the brush part ...apply the cream then on to my back ...then one day i got this light bulb and thought about making them to use and sell ...so just for grins and curiosity i searched the net to see if there was anything like this....wham i was surprised at how many hits i found of similar items complete with disposable applicators...... oh well

solodare · Jun 19, 2015

I'm no where near knowing how all of that works yet but one of my mains has aluminum battens.
The guy that fixed my sails looked like he had never seen that before maybe thats what the PO was doing with them?
they are easy to bend and in fact I thought I bent them my accident. I guess I was wrong. I got them nice and straight though! lol story of my life....
of course I could be wrong about the whole thing.

Brian S · Jun 19, 2015

Yes, tapered battens with different flex characteristics have been around in the racing world for a long time. Not so much the cruising world, as cruisers don't tend to pay as much attention to sail trim.

Daveinet · Jun 19, 2015

I always have wanted to design a large cloth loop around the mast. The loop should extend about 2/3rds the distance back to the leach. Set the mast up to rotate, and have the battons under tension. The lead edge of of the batton should be attached to the slot in the mast. The batton pocket should only be in the last 1/3rd of the sail. So as the mast rotates, the batton cause the sail to be curved on the back side, but the windward side will be flat. Since the sail is only looped around the mast, rather than attached to it, the rotation of the mast will control the draft. The material will slip on the mast, as the mast rotates. You could probably build the mast to be 8 or 10 inches fore to aft to help with sail shape. Since the sail is looped around the mast, it would be easy to drop the sail when you need to, or even reef. One may need to release the batton tension, so the sail could be dropped, but that would be easy to design a cam inside the mast for that purpose.

Benny17441 · Jun 19, 2015

Don't worry you are not likely to be last to make that discovery. It is not really an idea that is discussed much in cruising circles.

Joe · Jun 19, 2015

solodare said:
I'm no where near knowing how all of that works yet but one of my mains has aluminum battens.
The guy that fixed my sails looked like he had never seen that before maybe thats what the PO was doing with them?
they are easy to bend and in fact I thought I bent them my accident. I guess I was wrong. I got them nice and straight though! lol story of my life....
of course I could be wrong about the whole thing.

Unless they are full length, a battens function is to support the leech of the sail... main or jib. But, either full or partial, your battens should not be bendable where they change shape permanently. They should be springy and flexible but always keep their straight shape. These type of battens aren't too expensive and don't break easily.. You can purchase inexpensive, solid epoxy battens for your boat at any online chandlery. Here's an example: 24"x1/2" under $10.

On my Cat 27, I have four of these type, two full length battens up top and two partials on the lower section of the sail... On this type of keel boat, the battens are not really a trim control.. you have to drop the sail to adjust tension... so it's more of a rigging adjustment. I rarely fool with batten tension on this boat, more of a yearly inspection.

However, when I campaigned my Nacra, we made adjustments on the beach before every race. We would tip the cat on it's side and one person would hold the mast parallel to the ground while the other worked his way down the leech setting the batten caps. Took less than 5 minutes.

Joe · Jun 19, 2015

Daveinet said:
I always have wanted to design a large cloth loop around the mast. The loop should extend about 2/3rds the distance back to the leach. Set the mast up to rotate, and have the battons under tension. The lead edge of of the batton should be attached to the slot in the mast. The batton pocket should only be in the last 1/3rd of the sail. So as the mast rotates, the batton cause the sail to be curved on the back side, but the windward side will be flat. Since the sail is only looped around the mast, rather than attached to it, the rotation of the mast will control the draft. The material will slip on the mast, as the mast rotates. You could probably build the mast to be 8 or 10 inches fore to aft to help with sail shape. Since the sail is looped around the mast, it would be easy to drop the sail when you need to, or even reef. One may need to release the batton tension, so the sail could be dropped, but that would be easy to design a cam inside the mast for that purpose.

Here you go: http://smalltridesign.com/masts/rig-mast_options.html

joker460 · Jun 19, 2015

Beneteau is developing a wing sail for production sailing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1cEFP_H4Rk

Daveinet · Jun 19, 2015

Joe said:
Here you go: http://smalltridesign.com/masts/rig-mast_options.html

Too funny. Shows the OP is not alone in his "someone else got there first". This is a variation on what I was thinking, but certainly long the same line. I think my method of controlling draft will result in a little better shape. The interesting thing is that the idea never took off. Even now that the patent is expired, still no one is using it.

Joe · Jun 19, 2015

Daveinet said:
Too funny. Shows the OP is not alone in his "someone else got there first". This is a variation on what I was thinking, but certainly long the same line. I think my method of controlling draft will result in a little better shape. The interesting thing is that the idea never took off. Even now that the patent is expired, still no one is using it.

Read the article linked in that post... there's much more than just that one thing.

Daveinet · Jun 20, 2015

Thanks for making me read the whole article. I will say that my idea is really a combination of C, D, and E. The Luff pocket needs to be more than just the luff and should be the nearly the whole width of the sail. The mast needs to have a foil shape and rotate to flatten the windward side, as the loop slips on the mast. The article suggest that it is impossible to lower the sail, but I think that should not be difficult, as the sail should just slide down the hoop. I think having a way to release the tension on the battons will allow the sail to be dropped easily.

Joe · Jun 20, 2015

Daveinet said:
Thanks for making me read the whole article. I will say that my idea is really a combination of C, D, and E. The Luff pocket needs to be more than just the luff and should be the nearly the whole width of the sail. The mast needs to have a foil shape and rotate to flatten the windward side, as the loop slips on the mast. The article suggest that it is impossible to lower the sail, but I think that should not be difficult, as the sail should just slide down the hoop. I think having a way to release the tension on the battons will allow the sail to be dropped easily.

When you lower the sail, how does it fold? That's the problem, you would have to release the tension so the luff could come away from the mast to give it room to fold... or scrunch. If your using stiff Dacron or stiffer laminate... those small scrunchings will quickly ruin the integrity of the material.... if you try to roll it up you must address the battens.

Daveinet · Jun 20, 2015

If the mast is a bit of a wing, maybe 8 to 10 inches as shown drawing "C", the battons would extend into the mast. With some sort of cam mechinism inside the mast, one could move the battons in and out of the mast probably 6 to 8 inches. This would allow a lot of slack on the hoop, so the sail could be lowered.

Now I may show some ignorance here, but I tend to think that with the batton shaping the sail, the sail should not need to be stiff to function. It should be resistant to stretching, so it can be pulled tight and sag too much between the battons, but since the critical part of the foil is directly shaped by the mast foil, the rest of the sail should be fairly forgiving.