Sail trim

Dec 11, 2010
486
MacGregor 26x Hayden AL
In November I bought some new Rolly Tasker sails from Sailwarehouse. I've been having an issue That I don't understand so I called them and got some very friendly customer service. I'm not very skilled in sail trim and this one has me stumped...
The Main is beautiful. Great shape (imo) and makes power wherever it is pointed. It is a fully battened.
The Jib is where I'm having problems. It never seems to fill properly. It has an "S" shape if viewed from above. Jim told me that I may have my halyard too tight...I'll check that next time I'm out. My guess is I do have it too tight. The next issue is the trailing edge of the Jib wants to cup/curl around about the last 4/5 inches. I have tightened, loosened, and completely uncleated the leach line. It did help when I moved my jib cars all the way forward. The wind was light and i would have expected the opposite to be true.
Where am I screwing this up?
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,353
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Where am I screwing this up?

Do you have Don's excellent book and/or chart?
 
Sep 30, 2013
3,691
1988 Catalina 22 North Florida
I have a similar (or maybe identical?) problem with my working jib AND my 150. The inside top telltales almost always luff. Is that what you have?

There are two things that will get the telltales parallel for me: one is if I simulate moving the jib car further forward than the track goes, by stepping on the sheet and holding it to the deck a few inches forward of where the track ends. The other is trimming the sheet harder, using a winch handle.

I've not yet figured it out. Forestay tension? mast rake? I dunno. Maybe this thread will learn me. :)
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
There are two things that will get the telltales parallel for me: one is if I simulate moving the jib car further forward than the track goes, by stepping on the sheet and holding it to the deck a few inches forward of where the track ends.
Gene,

This is an EXCELLENT way to look at sail trim issues! It helps you see if an adjustment is needed or if your boat would benefit from a longer track.

I say this all the time; the absolute BEST mod you can often make to a boat is to add remotely adjustable jib tracks. We adjust ours constantly to keep the sail in ideal trim.

PS - you are also correct... Adding trim will help 'fix' it, but with the undesired side effect of closing the leach as twist is removed.
 
Dec 11, 2010
486
MacGregor 26x Hayden AL
I read until 11:00 last night and the one thing it seems I'm doing wrong is over tightening the halyard. I had my Mom on the boat and it really wasn't a good day for sail trim school, however, it was a good day!
 
Dec 23, 2008
772
Catalina 22 Central Penna.
Headsail setup

Is the sail cut to fit the boat, is the sheeting car in the right place, and is the forestay tension correct for the headsail to work?

I’m assuming the sail is correct for the boat and is a hanked on sail, roller furled sails would be the same except the halyard tension doesn’t change and once you put more than 4 rolls on the sail everything changes big time.

I’m a visual guy so, I’m going to describe what you should see in the shape of the headsail.

First lets look at the mainsails shape, in light to med air and close hauled release the vang and sheet the mainsail over top of your head while sitting at the helmsmen position. With the boom pointing over top the very corner of the transom and filled with wind, sight up the side of the boom and follow the leech of the mainsail all the way to the top of the mast. You should see the leech of this main bow outward towards the leeward side of the boat. The further up you look the more the pronounced curve as the leech goes to the top of the mast. Now, reach up and grab the backend of the boom and with the same line of sight start pulling down on the boom. You’ll see this curve at the backend of the sail get less and less as you pull down on the boom. Look at the very top batten, pull down on the boom till this batten appears parallel with the boom, if you pull to hard on the boom the backend of the top batten will start to point over the boom towards the center of the transom, you have to study it very closely to see it. When you see the batten is perfectly position parallel with the boom go to the vang and tension the vang till you see the same thing, the top batten parallel with the boom. Sheet the sail in closer to the center of the boat, do not sheet so tight to change its shape, use the traveler by pulling to windward. If the top batten is still where it should be, look at the back half of the mainsail from boom to top of mast from all angles on the boat, go to the bow and look at both sides of the sail.

This is what you want to see, the same shape in the back half of the headsail from bottom to top as you see in the main.

Tension the halyard with a few wrinkles in the luff under 10 mph and no wrinkles above 10 mph winds. Sailing close hauled, sight up the sheet line from the block to the clue and follow that line of sight to the sails luff or the front of the headsail. Position the sheet car so that a straight line would run from the car through the clue to the exact center of the luff. If this imaginary line goes above the center, the car is to far forward, then the sail will have extra power to go through the chop but, not as fast if exact center, to far back and below center will de-power the sail for high winds and not speed.

With the car in the proper position sheet the line in tight, so tight the sail almost comes in contact with the end of the spreaders on the mast, 3 to 6 inches is perfect. Sight up the leech of the headsail, does it look like the leech of the mainsail, if it had a batten would it be parallel with the outside edge of the boat, the top 1 third pointing straight back along the outside edge of the hull. The sail’s luff hanked on the forestay will be bowed forward and outward towards leeward. The more the bow in the luff the straighter the leech will be from bottom to top to a point. If you have 3 or 4 sets of tail-tells on the headsail’s luff and they are all flying then the tension on the forestay is correct.

Standing on the bow with the back of your head touching the forestay, look at the slot between the two sails. For this slot to be perfect at halfway up the headsail, the slot should look as though it gets smaller and smaller as it goes up, it needs to mirror the outside of the mainsail, if the slot looks like it goes up to the top 1 quarter part from the top and then starts to change more of the curve then the tension on the forestay is to tight. Have someone grab the backstay and push or pull as hard as they can on it while looking at the top part of this slot from the bow you’ll see this pronounced curve at the very top. Pulling on the backstay will increase tension on the forestay! Moving the sheeting car back towards the transom with also change this curve that you can see in the slot. If this curve is not even with the side of the main then the top part of the headsail is twisted out to leeward dumping air off the top of the headsail.

I have never tried this but, if you would make the forestay very loose and then attach a long line to the backstay in the area of the pigtail. Feed this line through the hole in the windward mooring cleat at the transom to pull the backstay sideways and pulling the other end of this line thus tensioning the backstay while standing on the bow, you’ll see the changes in the leech of the headsail and the slot as the tension changes on the forestay.
 
Feb 17, 2006
5,274
Lancer 27PS MCB Camp Pendleton KF6BL
I have moved this over to the Sail Trim with Don Guillette. Here you will get more exposure from many who do not frequent the Catalina 22 forum.
 
Dec 11, 2010
486
MacGregor 26x Hayden AL
Thanks. I thought about posting there/here but I thought I might get more 22 specific info on the 22 page. Now its all good because its on both. Now if I could only get back to the boat to try some of the suggestions....
 
Dec 11, 2010
486
MacGregor 26x Hayden AL
One of the controls i did not install was an adjuster for the backstay. I might have to go dig it out.
 

RichH

.
Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
In November I bought some new Rolly Tasker sails from Sailwarehouse. I've been having an issue That I don't understand so I called them and got some very friendly customer service. I'm not very skilled in sail trim and this one has me stumped...
The Main is beautiful. Great shape (imo) and makes power wherever it is pointed. It is a fully battened.
The Jib is where I'm having problems. It never seems to fill properly. It has an "S" shape if viewed from above. Jim told me that I may have my halyard too tight...I'll check that next time I'm out. My guess is I do have it too tight. The next issue is the trailing edge of the Jib wants to cup/curl around about the last 4/5 inches. I have tightened, loosened, and completely uncleated the leach line. It did help when I moved my jib cars all the way forward. The wind was light and i would have expected the opposite to be true.
Where am I screwing this up?
Take a good look at the amount of SAG to leeward of your forestay when 'pointing'.
The simple answer (based on NO pictures) is probably your backstay is too loose, causing the forestay to sag off to leewards. If you have a tension meter, the minimum backstay tension should be in the range of 12-15%.
To set the proper tension without a tension gage, go to http://www.riggingandsails.com/pdf/selden-tuning.pdf, then go to “The folding rule method” on page 29 to set up without a gage.

If tightening the backstay to proper tension doesnt correct the problem .... especially the 'cupped up leech' ............ , Id call "Jim" again, and ask him exactly how much 'luff hollow' was cut away from the luff of your jib and exactly how high from the tack is the maximum amount of 'hollow'. Then when beating to windward (in ~12kts of wind) and with proper backstay tension (12-15%) see if Jim's reply of the amount and location matches what your are SEEING w/r the amount of SAG to LEEWARD of your forestay when 'beating'.
Note: If you 'overtension' a jibsheet by tooooooo aggressive winch grinding, you'll get the exact same 'shape' problems. Dont gorilla-tighten your jib sheets.

Here's a quite detailed explanation of what I perceive your 'problem' may be and what to do about it: http://www.ftp.tognews.com/GoogleFiles/Matching Luff Hollow.pdf

A sagging, insufficiently tensioned backstay/forestay will cause excessive forestay sag (which causes VERY BAD jib 'shape') and which will cause excessive/aggressive heeling, will cause the boat to 'skid' sideways off to leeward which causes side pressure on the rudder which mimics so-called 'weather helm', etc. If the boat is skidding off to leewards due to a too loose forestay/backstay, you will note visually that the wake turbulence from the keel/centerboard/rudder is not coming straight off the stern when 'pointing'; but, will be exiting the boats transom at a 'noticeable' angle.
Check your backstay tension !!!!!!!!!!
 
Dec 11, 2010
486
MacGregor 26x Hayden AL
Awesome info, thanks for all your suggestions. I have a lot of investigating to do.
 

Dan_Y

.
Oct 13, 2008
521
Hunter 36 Hampton
Adjustable Jib Car

I say this all the time; the absolute BEST mod you can often make to a boat is to add remotely adjustable jib tracks. We adjust ours constantly to keep the sail in ideal trim.
A huge +1 on this control... Jackdaw, Don and others have said this and I finally installed the system. This and a new remote outhaul keep me off the deck in bumpy conditions and really increases the "joy of trimming".
 
Dec 11, 2010
486
MacGregor 26x Hayden AL
A brief, brief...
Before the "one I love above all others" got pissed off at me...
We went out and only raised the Jib. I figured it would give me one less thing to worry about with out the main up.
1. Loosening the Jib Halyard made a difference. Where as before I had it banjo string tight, I pulled it until it was tight and let off until you could see the hanks pulling the Jib slightly. That actually solved 50% of my problem.
2. I played with the Jib Sheets a LOT. I could make it better or worse but only by a small percentage and then it could have been different wind speeds as it was gusty.
3. I played with the backstay tension. If I sighted the stay against the mast, it would be pushed leeward about 3 inches. I could pull the backstay tighter with my hand and see the frontstay straighten, but again little difference.
4. Pissed the wife off while trying to change to the factory Jib that came with the boat. Pulled the Jib off, stuffed it through the hatch, (where it still lays on the V berth) motored to the dock. A mile. I was not asking her to take any pictures either......