12volt Ground?

FredV

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Oct 16, 2011
148
Hunter 37-cutter Philadelphia, PA
Battery charger install

Hi,

I'm getting ready to install new battery charger (Xantrex True Charge 2) in my 37-C, but am a bit confused by the installation instructions. They call for three 12volt wires - positive, negative, and ground. MaineSail's long post also mentions this 12volt ground, so I guess I'll follow those instructions. Is this the only place a 12volt ground is called for? I obviously have no idea why a ground is needed for the 12volt system - my circuit breaker panels don't have one, and certainly none of the 12volt items (lights, pumps, etc.) do either. Can anyone enlighten me on this?

Thanks!
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,050
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
DC has +, - and - chassis ground. The two grounds end up going to the same place, i.e., your engine.

The wiring diagram and IDs on pages 8 & 9 are pretty clear.
 
Jun 8, 2004
1,065
C&C Frigate 36 St. Margarets Bay, Nova Scotia
Re: Battery charger install

Hi Rainer,

Glad to hear someone around here is working on their boat - mine is still in a big snow bank. The 'extra' ground is typically for safety reasons - so that if a component fails a large current can pass safely to ground. I have the same thing on my Xantrex inverter - the red and black wires are maybe 8 AWG while the green ground has more amp capacity - its #4 AWG. Both the black "-" and the green ground ultimately end up back at the engine block.
 

FredV

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Oct 16, 2011
148
Hunter 37-cutter Philadelphia, PA
Ha! I feel like I've been working on her for years!

Thanks for the help - it's all starting to make sense, albeit very, very slowly!
 
Jun 8, 2004
1,065
C&C Frigate 36 St. Margarets Bay, Nova Scotia

FredV

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Oct 16, 2011
148
Hunter 37-cutter Philadelphia, PA
I actually do know the difference between "bonding" and "grounding", and opted to go the "no bonding" route for Fred V.

Would it make sense to run a #4AWG wire from the 12v panel's negative busbar to the engine block, then run both negative (black) and ground (green) wires from the charger to that busbar?
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,050
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Would it make sense to run a #4AWG wire from the 12v panel's negative busbar to the engine block, then run both negative (black) and ground (green) wires from the charger to that busbar?
Fred, that's pretty much what the wiring diagram says to do, isn't it?
 

FredV

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Oct 16, 2011
148
Hunter 37-cutter Philadelphia, PA
Stu - it might, but unfortunately the pages got soaked a couple months ago and are now somewhat difficult to read, even with a magnifying glass.
 
Jun 2, 2004
5,802
Hunter 37-cutter, '79 41 23' 30"N 82 33' 20"W--------Huron, OH
The original Cherubini wiring has ground to the panel coming off of the starter. Back when I was having the start problem and rewiring I doubled the size of that wire. Here is a sketch of my wiring when I moved the batteries to the bilge. I have the Freedom 200, same inverter/charger.
Oh, and there is a shunt shown for the Link 2000 which is not shown.
 

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FredV

.
Oct 16, 2011
148
Hunter 37-cutter Philadelphia, PA
Stu – forgive me for riding the pony on this, but …

While I am in total agreement with your “Did you Google it first?” reminders, I think in this case your admonishment missed the point. You’re correct in pointing out that the instructions were quite clear about running a wire to the 12v ground, but since this was the first time I had ever heard of a 12v ground, and since I really don’t know how reliable or trustworthy Xantrex instructions might be, I decided that members of this forum might provide both a better explanation of the purpose for a 12v ground, and a more reassuring confirmation of the need to use it.

In short, what I was looking for when I started this post was not data from a bunch of Internet sites, but opinions and guidance from experienced boat owners and sailors. And that’s exactly what I got – an explanation from Jim telling me what a 12v ground is and why it’s an important safety feature, and a schematic from Ed which illustrated how best to run the wires. The value and credibility of just these two posts alone far exceeds any number of hours of Internet research.

I get as frustrated as you, and probably a lot of other people, when I read posts about things that a quick Google search could answer in under a minute. But Google searches can’t come close to providing the extensive knowledge and real-life expertise available from the many members of this forum. So, yes, start with a Google search, but then give me what I’m really looking for – the thoughts and opinions of experienced, “been there, done that” sailors.

OK, I’m done now! Sorry for the long-winded detour!
 
Jun 8, 2004
1,065
C&C Frigate 36 St. Margarets Bay, Nova Scotia
Good rant, Rainer! And, I should point out, not picking on Stu either - this forum is pretty civilized, compared to some!

After looking at Ed's wiring diagram, I thought I would post mine. Different, but achieves the same goals. BTW, the 'motor' at the top of the drawing is my anchor windlass. And I have since added battery fuses to the starter and house banks. A good safety feature that is pretty much mandated in new installations by ABYC.
 

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Sep 12, 2011
88
Hunter 27 Annapolis
There is a world of difference between 'grounding' and 'bonding' and not everyone agrees on the efficacy of bonding in a fiberglass boat...just saying...
Bond and ground. I have never heard anyone say there is no need or reason to bond the ground wires on a fiberglass boat. ABYC says nothing about not doing that. In fact they say do it.!
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,709
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Bond and ground. I have never heard anyone say there is no need or reason to bond the ground wires on a fiberglass boat. ABYC says nothing about not doing that. In fact they say do it.!
I don't think Jim was referring to not connecting / bonding the DC negatives (grounded) & AC Green or metallic case DC grounding wires (grounding) to the engine block for Earth reference (grounding) point. As in the original posters question about the DC green case grounding wire for the charger.

He was talking about the choice to bond for corrosion or not to bond for corrosion. There is no requirement under the ABYC E-2 or E-11 standards for fiberglass boats to use a bonding system for below water metals. E-2 does set up standards for system design, if you choose to incorporate a bonding system for below water metals, but there is no ABYC requirement to have a bonding system for below water metals on a fiberglass vessel.

Many choose to not have a bonding system for below water metals, and for very good reasons. Stan Honey has perhaps the best article on this but it is often grossly misinterpreted because the average boater is simply not trained for understanding this. Most simply do not grasp marine corrosion or the subtleties between grounding, grounded, to bond vs. bonding systems for corrosion vs. lighting bonding vs. ships Earth ground reference vs. HF grounds, vs. to bond or not to bond etc...

ABYC E-11:

11.4.1 AC grounded conductor - A current carrying conductor that is intentionally maintained at ground potential.
NOTE: This may be referred to as the neutral (white) conductor in AC electrical systems.

11.4.2 AC grounding conductor (green or green with a yellow stripe) - A conductor, not normally carrying current, used to connect the metallic non-current carrying parts of AC electrical equipment to the AC grounding bus, engine negative terminal or its bus, and to the source ground.

11.4.6 DC grounded conductor - A current carrying conductor connected to the side of the power source that is intentionally maintained at boat ground potential.

11.4.7 DC grounding conductor - A normally non-current carrying conductor used to connect metallic non-current carrying parts of direct current devices to the engine negative terminal, or its bus.



There are big differences between these definitions and the OP was asking about the DC grounding conductor as is required under E-11 for a metallic case battery charger, inverter charger etc....

There is a world of difference between 'grounding' and 'bonding' and not everyone agrees on the efficacy of bonding in a fiberglass boat...just saying...
 
Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
Hi,

I'm getting ready to install new battery charger (Xantrex True Charge 2) but am a bit confused by the installation instructions. They call for three 12volt wires - positive, negative, and ground. MaineSail's long post also mentions this 12volt ground. Is this the only place a 12volt ground is called for? I obviously have no idea why a ground is needed for the 12volt system - Can anyone enlighten me on this?

Thanks!
Battery positive, battery negative and the ground wire... the ground is a safety wire for the body/case of the unit so in the event the battery charger should have a short/problem with the AC input, it will have a second chance to ground out and trip the circuit breaker rather than having the charger body remain live with AC power until either the fire starts or someone gets hurt..
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,709
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
I have seen situations where there is little underwater metal, boat not kept in a high current marina, and small electric not bonding their through hull metals.
Any serious system needs to be bonded.

http://www.powerandmotoryacht.com/video/maintenance/boat-bonding-system-multimeter-checks

Not sure why we are even questioning this.
No, any serious system does not always "need" to be bonded. A well designed system can survive just fine without bonding underwater metals and in many cases will do better than a bonded system.. The key words there are well-designed system..

Please read Stan Honey's excellent article on this...

Marine Grounding & Bonding

Stan Honey for Practical Sailor & West Marine:
"Bonding and Electrolytic Corrosion Due to Hot Marinas

Do not bond any thru-hulls or other immersed metal that can be electrically isolated. Specifically, keep your metal keel/ballast, your metal rudder shaft, your engine/prop, and all thru-hulls electrically isolated, from each other, and from the engine.

It's worth understanding the reason. In an increasing number of marinas, there are substantial DC electric currents running through the water. If your bits of immersed metal are bonded, the electric current will take the lower resistance path offered by your boat in preference to the water near your boat, and the current will flow into one of your bits of metal, through your bonding wires, and then out another bit of metal. The anodic bit of metal or thru-hull that has the misfortune to be on the "out current" side of the current running through your bonding system will also become "out metal" and will disappear, sometimes rapidly.

Your zinc is only intended to protect against the modest galvanic potentials and therefore currents that are caused by the dissimilar metals that are immersed and electrically connected together on your own boat. Your zinc is incapable of supplying enough galvanic potential to protect against substantial DC currents that may be flowing in the water. These DC currents in the water will cause electrolytic corrosion to your bonded thru-hulls or metal parts."






Nigel Calder:
"Unbond & Isolate

The opposite approach to bonding and cathodic protection, which is more prevalent in Europe than in the USA, is to unbond all underwater fittings, isolate them electrically, and allow them to reach equilibrium at their own voltage....

We had an unbonded boat in the warm tropical and semitropical waters for 12 years and no signs of corrosion"



Nigel's own boat unbonded.....

It is always interesting when we paint or assume marine corrosion/bonding as a black & white issue. It is far more complex and each vessel needs to be considered on its own merits, use and installed systems or lack there of. It sure would be nice if it was just as simple as always bond or never bond. My job would be sooo much easier.........;)


There are many well respected industry experts in this field who don't necessarily believe in bonding or who physically don't do it on their own vessels. Nigel Calder & Stan Honey come to mind, and two who do not always believe in bonding. It is hardly black & white issue and certainly not mandatory or a must do.

As a marine electrician I get to do this stuff every day. I specialize in corrosion as just one of the many electrical systems areas I work with. I don't paint each vessel with the same brush, you just can't do that.

My own vessel is not bonded, never will be, except for lightning and the AC / DC grounding bond. Many of my customers boats are bonded because they have suspect wiring issues they don't want to spend the money on to address. Even more, most bonding systems are so corroded they are really doing nothing and on many boats one can't even measure continuity between fittings. This can actually serve to create issues rather than solve them.

I have some 40+ year old boats I work on that are unbonded with perfectly operating 40 year old tapered cone bronze seacocks. Not all builders bonded underwater fittings yet even at 40 years + these unbonded fiberglass vessels exhibit zero issues and show no signs no de-alloying of the below water metals...

This is not just a black and white answer and on many boats, with unknown wiring condition, wet bilges etc. bonding can be beneficial (certainly might buy you some time in an on-board DC leak).

On a boat that is perfectly wired I personally prefer unbonded, as my own boat is. I don't suggest everyone unbond however but organizations such as Practical Sailor, The West Marine Advisor, Stan Honey, Nigel Calder and other well respected individuals have and do.
 
Sep 12, 2011
88
Hunter 27 Annapolis
That's one perspective that works in low current areas (not a marina) and with boats without serious electrical needs or systems.
ABYC does have a standard for bonding which starts,
"All boats equipped with a permanently installed electrical system shall be equipped with a bonding system."
Check out ABYC's E-01
https://law.resource.org/pub/us/cfr/ibr/001/abyc.E-01.1973.pdf

It does state:
[FONT=&quot]Items Not Required to be Bonded (I) :[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Electrically isolated thru-hull fittings need not be connected to the bonding system. (See ABYC E-2, "Cathodic Protection".) (2) Other electrically isolated metallic items except as recommended in ABYC E-4, "Lightning Protection" . [/FONT]

But we are talking about a battery charger here so yes, it should be bonded.

Again, not sure why we are having this conversation.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,709
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
That's one perspective that works in low current areas (not a marina) and with boats without serious electrical needs or systems.
If you really understood what you were saying you'd probably not be saying what you did...;) Stan Honey's piece, if you really understand what he is saying, specifically applies to "hot marinas" and marina's in general..... Your bonded boat creates a lower resistance path for stray current than does seawater. It will use your bonding system as a nice low resistance pathway. There will always be an in and an out side of the current flow through your boat in a situation like this. The exit is the fitting that will get eaten. This is not at all uncommon in bonded boats in marinas.

ABYC does have a standard for bonding which starts,
"All boats equipped with a permanently installed electrical system shall be equipped with a bonding system."
Check out ABYC's E-01
https://law.resource.org/pub/us/cfr/ibr/001/abyc.E-01.1973.pdf

It does state:
[FONT=&quot]Items Not Required to be Bonded (I) :[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Electrically isolated thru-hull fittings need not be connected to the bonding system. (See ABYC E-2, "Cathodic Protection".) (2) Other electrically isolated metallic items except as recommended in ABYC E-4, "Lightning Protection" . [/FONT]

ABYC E-1 does not even exist any longer. That is not an active document and dates back to 1972.....:doh: We've learned a lot since 1972.;)

As a current member of the ABYC, an ABYC certified technician and as an active and participating member of the ABYC Electrical PTC, the committee which writes the ABYC standards, I can assure you thre is no requirement to have your seacocks/thru-hulls and below waterline fittings bonded on a fiberglass boat under ABYC standards.


But we are talking about a battery charger here so yes, it should be bonded.
As has already been stated there is an ABYC requirement to ground the metallic case of your battery charger to the ships grounding point. This is not the "bonding" that started this discussion. This is a human-safety ground requirement that has nothing at all to do with corrosion.

Again, not sure why we are having this conversation.
Generally threads go like this so folks can have a broader understanding of the subject....