I am going through the process of a potential purchase of a 2000 Hunter 310. Massey Yacht Sales of Palmetto FL is the listing broker. The listing states it is a wing keel and the owner disclosed that it never had a hard grounding. I had the boat surveyed today and the owner was present and says that the winglets on the keel were cut off because the boat grounded and one winglet was bent and could not be straightened. Well hearing this at time of survey was a major issue. Sea trial went well and boat sailed fine but no way to compare with a non altered keel. The winglets totaled about 150 lbs of ballast. I feel that this was a deceptive listing by the owner and did not honestly disclose to the broker until the survey. Any body care to comment?
I had a Hunter 310 Survey today, need opinions
- Thread starter hlanni1
- Start date
The desc you wrote is contradictory. You say "the owner disclosed it never had a hard grounding" and subsequently state the. Owner said "the winglets were cut...because the boat grounded".
It's hard to offer an intelligent opinion or advice not knowing the real story or the surveyor's inspection desc of the damage,keel step and bolt appearance.
It's hard to offer an intelligent opinion or advice not knowing the real story or the surveyor's inspection desc of the damage,keel step and bolt appearance.
It sound like the owner did his own repairs and not done under the insurance as the insurance would of replaced/repaired the keel.
The point was that the owner did failed to disclose it on the disclosure form that he signed, only after the survey was started did he disclose it. I hope that clarifies the issue.
Sorry to have to tell you this, but in my opinion winged keel boats and extensive areas of shoal water, as in FL, are not good match ups--for the very reason that you are now concerned over. It's hard to get the boats off shoals if the wings bury, or resist the boat being heeled over to pull it off. Perhaps that's what happened
! I've been hard aground a few times there in FL, as have my friends. My bud in the O'Day 32 with the winged keel was out there all night!!
! I've been hard aground a few times there in FL, as have my friends. My bud in the O'Day 32 with the winged keel was out there all night!!
Without mincing words, the owner sounds like a real jerk hence, proceed with caution. There's the loss of 150 lbs. at the end of a fairly long moment arm. You've just lost a fair bit of righting moment which I'm sure this guy didn't work out the calculations. Probably couldn't spell "calculations". Speaking as a 1999 H-310 owner (from new), they're a great boat but they are tender, and this loss isn't going to help any.
If you need further convincing of what you're getting into, take a close look at the engine for cleanliness and then ask to see the engine maintenance records. Check the holding tank under the port setee for smell. See what it looks like in the area of the prop shaft gland, if it's been spraying. What's the bilge like.
The above items are not critical in themselves, but they're an indication of the way the boat's been treated in its relatively short life to date.
I can't think of much worse treatment than a hard grounding and then whacking off the bent pieces.
I get it the owner did not disclose to the broker which in turn made the broker make untrue claim. I would walk away from the boat and demand reimbursement of every penny that you may have put into this. This wing keel boats are pretty tender and giving away a few hundred pounds of at the tip of the keel is not going to make it better. The wing tips are probably 5 feet away from the boat's center of gravity Their loss will probably represent more than 1,000 lbs of arm righting momentum.
If I understand correctly, you now have a wing keel with NO wings.
If that's right, you have two choices:
1. Run, don't walk.
2. Replace the keel.
One gets you out of it. Two requires some negotiation.
Good luck.
If that's right, you have two choices:
1. Run, don't walk.
2. Replace the keel.
One gets you out of it. Two requires some negotiation.
Good luck.
Agreed - the owner should have mentioned the keel modification well before the survey stage.
Did you take a photo of the modifed keel that you can share here ? Be interesting to see how agressive it was cut down. Google some 310 wing keels and compare to your photo to understand how much removed. If really only 150lbs on a 3000lb keel -- probably not a safety issue.
Did the surveyor have opinion ? What about condition of the hull-keel joint.
Boat does look nice in the listings. If you are still interested in the boat atleast you have a good bargaining position to demand a lower price. I think it is worth a $5K discount.
Lots of other boats out there.
Did you take a photo of the modifed keel that you can share here ? Be interesting to see how agressive it was cut down. Google some 310 wing keels and compare to your photo to understand how much removed. If really only 150lbs on a 3000lb keel -- probably not a safety issue.
Did the surveyor have opinion ? What about condition of the hull-keel joint.
Boat does look nice in the listings. If you are still interested in the boat atleast you have a good bargaining position to demand a lower price. I think it is worth a $5K discount.
Lots of other boats out there.
Demand your survey cost on canceling the deal
Changing his story on them grounding was simply fraud, and it cost you a survey.
I would not buy a boat with a fundamental design change like lopping off the keel wings! It compromises performance while you own the boat, and makes it hard to sell.
The boat you want will come on the market. This is not it!
Changing his story on them grounding was simply fraud, and it cost you a survey.
I would not buy a boat with a fundamental design change like lopping off the keel wings! It compromises performance while you own the boat, and makes it hard to sell.
The boat you want will come on the market. This is not it!
Since there was no full disclosure about the modification of the keel and the outright what appears to be a fraudulent description, I would suggest demanding the cost of the survey back. Not sure if you could file on your own in small claims court or is it worth your time but a thought.
Ralph did hit on a good point. When looking at a boat, I always told my customers to look at the engine housing as that is a good place to start to tell what an owner did keeping his boat in good condition.
Massey generally is a respected dealer for what it is worth.
Ralph did hit on a good point. When looking at a boat, I always told my customers to look at the engine housing as that is a good place to start to tell what an owner did keeping his boat in good condition.
Massey generally is a respected dealer for what it is worth.
Re: Demand your survey cost on canceling the deal
Just my two cents--buying a boat can be emotional, but keeping those feelings in check is critical. Remember, when it comes time for you to sell, you will have to explain this situation to the next potential owner. As others have said, this boat was altered from its original design spec.
There are many boats out there and at worst you are out the cost of the survey, which is why you had one...IMHO, I would walk away...
Just my two cents--buying a boat can be emotional, but keeping those feelings in check is critical. Remember, when it comes time for you to sell, you will have to explain this situation to the next potential owner. As others have said, this boat was altered from its original design spec.
There are many boats out there and at worst you are out the cost of the survey, which is why you had one...IMHO, I would walk away...
I feel you just got screwed out of the cost of a haul and survey, because in my mind you need to walk away.
No need to scare him away. A new keel installed will be around $4k so negotiate that reduction, install the new keel and never worry about it again.
The owner may be of dubious character but you are buying a boat, not a new friend.
The owner may be of dubious character but you are buying a boat, not a new friend.
The boat was altered and the keel has been hit. I would walk, but that is just MHO.
Walk
Rule. #2. See Rule #1
Why are busses and sailboats for sale alike?
Cause there will be another one around in a few minutes.
Never, ever buy anything from someone that you catch in a lie.
And, yes, you should demand reimbursement for the survey.
I understand that Massey is a reputable outfit.
A lot of people read these posts. So, your positive comments on how they treated you on this will be good PR for them.
My suggestion is to let them know this is being actively viewed on the HOW site.
Rule #1. Don't deal with liars
Rule. #2. See Rule #1
Why are busses and sailboats for sale alike?
Cause there will be another one around in a few minutes.
Never, ever buy anything from someone that you catch in a lie.
And, yes, you should demand reimbursement for the survey.
I understand that Massey is a reputable outfit.
A lot of people read these posts. So, your positive comments on how they treated you on this will be good PR for them.
My suggestion is to let them know this is being actively viewed on the HOW site.
there was a hunter 29.5 a 1994 i believe in the yard next to me.... stored by a salvage company....the wing keel was all but off hanging by a thread as the boat had been grounded very hard and there was a big tear in the hull the full length of the keel stub and was torn out of the hull stub and all...... it was a total by insurance company ...some outfit in Vero Beach bought the boat and when the hauler had it loaded it almost fell off on the trailer it was a delavan trailer....any way they got the boat down to their yard and repaired it and about three months later i saw the boat advertised on the net and Ebay and all the add said was it had just had a new bottom paint job and some poor soul bought that boat ...so you see they will lie to you by omission .....
Woodster,
There are many good dealers out there which is why I spoke up for Massey as I know the owner too well. When buying from a company, there are ways to check him or that firm out. I had folks check up on me in this forum when purchasing boats particularly those overseas. In all my years as a dealer selling new and used out of the country to nearly every continent, never once was there a survey done I guess to my reputation for doing the job right the first time. There are many others and that includes Massey.
As for the keel, Mars Metals in Canada has the mold for the keels and it is not cheap but does help to let them have the old lead keels back. If that was all and the survey came out clean except for that, I would have considered that boat only if the price was reduced for the cost and installation of the new keel.
There are many good dealers out there which is why I spoke up for Massey as I know the owner too well. When buying from a company, there are ways to check him or that firm out. I had folks check up on me in this forum when purchasing boats particularly those overseas. In all my years as a dealer selling new and used out of the country to nearly every continent, never once was there a survey done I guess to my reputation for doing the job right the first time. There are many others and that includes Massey.
As for the keel, Mars Metals in Canada has the mold for the keels and it is not cheap but does help to let them have the old lead keels back. If that was all and the survey came out clean except for that, I would have considered that boat only if the price was reduced for the cost and installation of the new keel.
Woodster,
I knew that but was telling others. I appreciate the information that you give to the forum.
I knew that but was telling others. I appreciate the information that you give to the forum.