Thermal Runaway or what??

[Nodak7]

Interesting thing happened yesterday. Our 41DS has a house bank consisting of 2 4D batteries. I monitor them with a Xantrex Linkpro system. The batteries are approximately 5 years old. We have been out on an extended cruise and are currently on our way home. Most of this has been at anchor but the night before last we took a slip. Anyways when we left Naples yesterday it was windy with fairly high seas (4-6'). We did get buffeted pretty good on the way out but not real bad. Last night when we dropped anchor I checked our battery condition and it looked good. Within 2 hours of shutting down the voltage was less than 12v and the battery amps were good. Seemed strange but since the admiral was preparing dinner I started the generator and did not see any other problem. After dinner I shut down he generator and everything seemed fine, Good voltage and 100% AH. Within 2 hours the voltage alarm was going off. I looked in the battery compartment area and one of the batteries was boiling and very hot. I took the temp and it was 130f. I disconnected the battery and checked all the connections. Found no problems. However the disconnected battery continued to boil and remained hot. After two hours the battery temp finally began to drop. Still not certain exactly what happened but after doing some research I believe it was a thermal runaway. Fortunately I caught it before it caused a fire! Any suggestions?

 

[Maine Sail]

You have a bad battery with an internal short. Stop using the bad battery, NOW...

Hint: Do not repeat this nonsense... 4D & 8D batteries are NOT true deep cycle batteries!! Invest in real heavy duty deep cycle batteries such as golf cart batteries. 4D & 8D, unless GEL or AGM, are NOT deep cycle despite the many lies many battery makers feed you....

Sadly, time for new batteries.....

 

[centerline]

You have a bad battery with an internal short. Stop using the bad battery, NOW...

Hint: Do not repeat this nonsense... 4D & 8D batteries are NOT true deep cycle batteries!! Invest in real heavy duty deep cycle batteries such as golf cart batteries. 4D & 8D, unless GEL or AGM, are NOT deep cycle despite the many lies many battery makers feed you....

Sadly, time for new batteries.....

yep....

Too many people think that just because the battery is dimensionally bigger, its a better choice for their boat..... not so.
An 8D battery is a high amperage starting battery and
It only makes a bigger bang when it explodes from an internal short.

 

[Maine Sail]

yep....

Too many people think that just because the battery is dimensionally bigger, its a better choice for their boat..... not so.
An 8D battery is a high amperage starting battery and
It only makes a bigger bang when it explodes from an internal short.

And builders only install them because:

#1 They are CHEAP!
#2 Their large appearance impresses Biff & Muffy at the boat show

 

[Doug4bass]

And builders only install them because: #1 They are CHEAP! #2 Their large appearance impresses Biff & Muffy at the boat show

"Biff and Muffy" are changing their 4ds out for 6 volt as soon as they give up the ghost.

 

[Maine Sail]

"Biff and Muffy" are changing their 4ds out for 6 volt as soon as they give up the ghost.

See, your not really a Biff & Muffy.... Don't feel bad we did the same with our 2005 Catalina that came with POS 4D's. There was nothing I could do to refuse those batteries, "They come with the boat regardless of what you want. There is no other option"...

 

[Nodak7]

Thanks all!!! Fortunately I found the battery problem before it got to be a REAL problem. It is now disconnected and will be removed as soon as we return to port. Interesting to note that we carry a battery powered CO monitor on our boat over and above what is already there. Anyway it began "chirping" two days ago. I thought it was low batteries but when I replaced the battery it still "chirped". I wonder if it might have been picking up something from the battery as it was self destructing? The offending battery finally cooled off by the end of the day.I disconnected it early this morning (4am) and it is still warm but not hot. Temp 99f.

Anyway I will replace these 4D batteries with better more appropriate ones I need to figure out exactly what will fit into the compartment.

 

[Charles Erwin]

Considering where you are this might not help.

But - Dyno Battery (Seattle) makes a 4D true deep cycle - the only manufacturer who does so as far as I can tell. The Dyno 4D deep cycles are C20 => 185 amps each whereas 6 vdc golf carts (series/ parallel) will get you 210 amps or better per pair.

If space (actually tallness) allows then 6 vdc golf cart in series/parallel may be the better value but only if you can accommodate height.

Charles

 

[kbuckley]

CO monitors have a date stamp when they need to be replaced. They are a limited lifetime device. Check if that is your issue. 5 - 7 years or so...

 

[Nodak7]

Considering where you are this might not help.

But - Dyno Battery (Seattle) makes a 4D true deep cycle - the only manufacturer who does so as far as I can tell. The Dyno 4D deep cycles are C20 => 185 amps each whereas 6 vdc golf carts (series/ parallel) will get you 210 amps or better per pair.

If space (actually tallness) allows then 6 vdc golf cart in series/parallel may be the better value but only if you can accommodate height.

Charles

Thanks Charles! I am seriously leaning towards the 6 vdc batteries. The boat uses lots of power and the more aH I can get the better. I do know a sister boat that has (6) 6 vdc batteries and I may try to copy his system. But I will also look into availablity of the Dyno 4d. Seems like they should be more than 185 aH though. I think the 4D's I currently have were a bit more than that.

Nodak7

 

[Nodak7]

CO monitors have a date stamp when they need to be replaced. They are a limited lifetime device. Check if that is your issue. 5 - 7 years or so...

Thanks. If I recall correctly they must be right at the 5 year age. Just seemed strange that thye would pick that particular time to decide to die. Anyway now the battery has settled down I am going put the batteries back in and see if they continue to chirp.

Nodak7

 

[Nodak7]

You have a bad battery with an internal short. Stop using the bad battery, NOW...

Hint: Do not repeat this nonsense... 4D & 8D batteries are NOT true deep cycle batteries!! Invest in real heavy duty deep cycle batteries such as golf cart batteries. 4D & 8D, unless GEL or AGM, are NOT deep cycle despite the many lies many battery makers feed you....

Sadly, time for new batteries.....

Maine Sail I was doing some research and found this old post from when I was in the process of installing these batteries and I still think your analysis was excellent! I guess I should have taken your advise back then! I will this time! Thanks

Maine Sail 06-16-2011 11:00 am Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodak7 (Post 820812)
I think you are right about the battery guys math but after further review I believe the 4D's are the way to go. Here is why. I found the table below on the net and it gives the general AH ratings per battery type.

http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm

Group 27 85-105 Amp hours 12 volts
Group 31 95-125 Amp hours 12 volts
4-D 180-215 Amp hours 12 volts
8-D 225-255 Amp hours 12 volts
T-105 180 to 225 Amp hours 6 volts

As you can see if I have 2 4D's I have a range of 360-430AH's and 4 T-105's have a range of 360-450AH's. You are correct there are more AH's at the upper end by 20 for the T-105's but the extra cost of the batteries and of the cables (not to say anything of a x2 for potential defective batteries) makes the 4D's seem more attractive.


To address your other statement about true Deep Cycle (DC) batteries. The Interstate SRM-4D's are advertised as DC Batteries so I will have to check whether they are "true" DC Batteries or not. I appreciate your bringing that part up.

Not withstanding any of this I appreciate your input and help with this. It made me look much deeper than the initial math which made it sound much better than what it was. If it turns out to be a bad decision I will let you know.

Firstly you can't compare a an Interstate SRM 4D "Deep Cycle"/Cranking battery to a Trojan DEEP CYCLE. This is akin to comparing the reliability of a Honda or Toyota to a Renault Le-Car IMHO. Those brands are not even in the same class. The Interstate SRM-4D is made by Johnson Controls/JCI for Interstate.

I actually called interstate to try and find out the Ah rating and plate thickness. What a debacle. Even their tech support had no clue. I got three different answers when I asked about the 20 hour Ah rating. If you have a battery monitor you NEED to know the precise 20 hour Ah rating or it will NOT work correctly. Buying this battery is a crap shoot without knowing the accurate specs.

Here's a good general rule of thumb. If the manufacturer does not publish a 20 hour Ah rating the battery is often not a true deep cycle battery but then again Interstate does not market this as a true deep cycle battery they market it as a deep cycle/cranking battery.

There are however exceptions. NAPA sells the SAME deep cycle 12V batteries that West Marine does but NAPA does not publish the Ah rating in their specs for the battery. A simple call to the manufacturer, Deka, and you know this.

I can tell by looking at the CCA of that battery that it is very likely not a true deep cycle wet cell. A thick plate battery would have a lower CCA value in a wet cell. Interstate labels it as a dual purpose battery or "deep cycle/cranking" these are hybrid batteries that attempt to do both but almost always miss the mark when put into a true deep cycling application like a boat.

One of the only true 4D deep cycle batteries I know if is the Dyno 4Dd (the small d designated deep cycle) not to be confused with the Dyno 4D which is for starting. This battery has an Ah rating of 180 Ah's and cost $268.00 and like many true deep cycle, thick plate batteries, they do not publish a CCA value. My guess is that the SRM 4D is going to be under 200 Ah's at the 20 hour rate.

If you want to compare a more similar product compare to the Sam's Club/Energizer 6V GC2's which are about $72.00 each and 225 Ah's or the Interstate U2200 6V at 232Ah's. All of these batteries are made by JCI. Interestingly enough the old U2200 6V used to be made by US Battery and was an EXCELLENT top quality battery. Now that it is made by JCI it had better cost the same as the Sam's Club JCI battery... I guess paying for the quality of the US Battery, to put the Interstate name on, left them with little margin so they outsourced it to a less expensive vendor.

That being said any 6V battery, good quality or lower end, will almost always have thicker plates than a dual purpose flooded 4D and thus last longer in most deep cycle applications. I've yet to see a floor machine or golf cart with 4D's or 8D's.. 6V batteries are also taller by design so sulfation can be shed off the plates and fall to the bottom of the case during equalization. A shorter battery fills up with shed plate junk faster than a shorter one. As you get into even thicker plate deep cycles like the Trojan L-116 they are even taller.

If you have the room for 4 6V batteries they are almost always the better choice and in most cases, unless comparing to a very low end 4D and a high end Trojan, as you are, will cost less on an Ah basis.

As has been said the number of cells is the same in a 4 battery 6V bank as in a 2 battery 12V bank. The plastic case around the individual batteries makes little difference as all batteries are made up of individual 2V cells. A 12V battery has to pack 6 2V cells into the case thus they have thinner plates. A 6V only needs to pack 3 2V cells and the plates can be thicker as can the cell separators.

My Synopsis of Wet Cell Batteries by Grade/Quality:

Top Tier:

Rolls/Surrette

I intentionally left a space here because the Rolls batteries are significantly more top tier than US or Trojan..

Trojan
US Battery

Second Tier:

Dyno
Crown
Superior
Deka/East Penn

Third Tier:

Johnson Controls / Private Label
Exide
Interstate (most of these are made by Johnson Controls)
Various Private labeled batteries



Here's some quick math comparing apples to apples or manufacturer to manufacturer:

Cost:
4 Sam's Club / JCI GC2 6V Batts = $288.00

2 Interstate / JCI 4D Batteries = $434.00

Ah's
4 Sam's Club / JCI GC2 6V Batts = 450 Ah's

2 Interstate / JCI 4D Batteries = ????? (under 400 Ah's anyway)

Cost per Ah:

Sam's Club / JCI @ 450Ah = $0.64

Interstate / JCI @ 400Ah = $1.09

NOTE: Please keep in mind that 200 Ah's is likely not what the 4D's are and they are likely less in Ah capacity so your Ah per dollar will likely be higher.

When comparing apples to apple or JCI batts to JCI batts the 6V batteries are nearly HALF the cost per amp hour....

 

[PGIJon]

Nodak7 really glad to hear you avoided the fire. I went with the Sams club EGC2's and so far really happy with them.

 

[ice breaker]

Interesting thing happened yesterday. Our 41DS has a house bank consisting of 2 4D batteries. I monitor them with a Xantrex Linkpro system. The batteries are approximately 5 years old. We have been out on an extended cruise and are currently on our way home. Most of this has been at anchor but the night before last we took a slip. Anyways when we left Naples yesterday it was windy with fairly high seas (4-6'). We did get buffeted pretty good on the way out but not real bad. Last night when we dropped anchor I checked our battery condition and it looked good. Within 2 hours of shutting down the voltage was less than 12v and the battery amps were good. Seemed strange but since the admiral was preparing dinner I started the generator and did not see any other problem. After dinner I shut down he generator and everything seemed fine, Good voltage and 100% AH. Within 2 hours the voltage alarm was going off. I looked in the battery compartment area and one of the batteries was boiling and very hot. I took the temp and it was 130f. I disconnected the battery and checked all the connections. Found no problems. However the disconnected battery continued to boil and remained hot. After two hours the battery temp finally began to drop. Still not certain exactly what happened but after doing some research I believe it was a thermal runaway. Fortunately I caught it before it caused a fire! Any suggestions?

Nodak:

Great to hear that you are out having fun with the DS41. Naples sure is better than Bismark this time of year. 3 years ago, we had a similar issue happen with our original 4d AGM batteries. Fast voltage drop. It was a short in one of the 4D. I removed it from the system until I could get a new battery. I placed and order with the marina for 2 new 4d AGM, as the last set had lasted 8 years, but they were on back order for a month, so I purchased Deckka 6 volt golf cart batteries, and am very happy that I did. Last summer, I was teaching my daughter how to follow the check list when she uses the boat, and in all of the screwing around, we both checked everything except that the charger was on. 3 weeks later I have NO voltage and rotting food. It took the 50amp charger 18 hours before it went in to float mode. The rest of the season they seemed fine.

Well I am at the boat yesterday to do my mid winter check, and both banks are at 12.6 volts, and they have not been charged since Halloween. Very happy with the Deccka product. I purchased them at Fleet Farm for about 90 each, less than half price of an AGM product. The only down side that I see is that it takes longer to recharge them. Almost double.

Per your set up, the batteries will fit nicely in your battery boxes, but you will need to get 2 tie straps to connect the 2 6 volts into a 12, and you may need to extend the stock connectors to reach the posts. Mine had enough length to make it work, but just barley.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[Nodak7]

Nodak:

Great to hear that you are out having fun with the DS41. Naples sure is better than Bismark this time of year. 3 years ago, we had a similar issue happen with our original 4d AGM batteries. Fast voltage drop. It was a short in one of the 4D. I removed it from the system until I could get a new battery. I placed and order with the marina for 2 new 4d AGM, as the last set had lasted 8 years, but they were on back order for a month, so I purchased Deckka 6 volt golf cart batteries, and am very happy that I did. Last summer, I was teaching my daughter how to follow the check list when she uses the boat, and in all of the screwing around, we both checked everything except that the charger was on. 3 weeks later I have NO voltage and rotting food. It took the 50amp charger 18 hours before it went in to float mode. The rest of the season they seemed fine.

Well I am at the boat yesterday to do my mid winter check, and both banks are at 12.6 volts, and they have not been charged since Halloween. Very happy with the Deccka product. I purchased them at Fleet Farm for about 90 each, less than half price of an AGM product. The only down side that I see is that it takes longer to recharge them. Almost double.

Per your set up, the batteries will fit nicely in your battery boxes, but you will need to get 2 tie straps to connect the 2 6 volts into a 12, and you may need to extend the stock connectors to reach the posts. Mine had enough length to make it work, but just barley.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Ice Breaker,

Got back yesterday afternoon after a long cool (63 degrees) run from St James. We traveled about 371 nms in the past 12 days and the weather was yucky all but the time we spent on Marathon and the Keys.

Did my research this morning and I will be replacing my 2 4D's with 4 Trojan T-145's. They fit nicely in the battery space and give me more AH's than the 4D's did. Now to get these monsters out of the boat.

I can imagine that you are getting anxious to get the boat out for the season.

Nodak7

 

[sailor5017]

We also have a 41DS just recently changed out original house bank ( 6 6v interstate so called deep cycle batteries) after 9 years use with 6 crown deep cycle batteries gives us pretty close to 700 anp hours we run two fridges and a freezer , high out put alt. 280 watt solar. we go thru 140 amps per day solar puts back about 70 amps on a good day.
we can sit for 3 days without running engine to charge.
we choose crown over trojan because of the price ( Vancouver boat show price of $120/ battery ) and they are built in the US did research and found no complaints about crown deep cycles..

 

[Nodak7]

We also have a 41DS just recently changed out original house bank ( 6 6v interstate so called deep cycle batteries) after 9 years use with 6 crown deep cycle batteries gives us pretty close to 700 anp hours we run two fridges and a freezer , high out put alt. 280 watt solar. we go thru 140 amps per day solar puts back about 70 amps on a good day.
we can sit for 3 days without running engine to charge.
we choose crown over trojan because of the price ( Vancouver boat show price of $120/ battery ) and they are built in the US did research and found no complaints about crown deep cycles..

Nice looking boat sailor! Yes ours is a power hog too! I may end up putting the next two in but not now. I really do not want to put 2 under the sole plate.

 

[ice breaker]

Nice looking boat sailor! Yes ours is a power hog too! I may end up putting the next two in but not now. I really do not want to put 2 under the sole plate.

Nodak:

I have considered putting 2 more where the start battery is right in front of the door to the head. If you relocate the shower sump pump there would be plenty of room for 2 more, and the cables needed to tie them in would be short. Right now I keep a case of wine in there, yes it is chilled white given the lake temps!

 

[Nodak7]

Nodak:

I have considered putting 2 more where the start battery is right in front of the door to the head. If you relocate the shower sump pump there would be plenty of room for 2 more, and the cables needed to tie them in would be short. Right now I keep a case of wine in there, yes it is chilled white given the lake temps!

Thanks Ice Breaker. Right now I have a deck washdown pump between my starter battery and the shower sump pump so I would have to relocate them if I decide to add the two additional batteries. Which would mean plumbing and electrical work. But maybe it would fit into the void under the bathroom floor which would free up that space. Hmm now you got me thinking!!!

 

[Nodak7]

Well the deed is done! I replaced the 2 12v 4D batteries with 6 6v Trojan T105's. I ended up putting two under the sole plate and shifting things around was not as bad as I thought it would be. Hopefully this will be an improvement! It certainly is a leap forward as far as AH's are concerned. Thanks again for all your assistance and comments on this subject.

Nodak7