Do jib tracks make sense?

Dec 23, 2013
4
Hunter 30 Little Creek Norfolk
Hello,

I am updating a 1975 Hunter 30 (#006), that my father recently gave me. We have been contemplating adding jib/genoa tracks rather than continue to use the toe rail for the blocks. Has anyone done this with their vintage H 30's?

Thanks!

MDA
Restless #006
 
Jan 22, 2008
1,483
Hunter 37 C sloop Punta Gorda FL
Hello, I am updating a 1975 Hunter 30 (#006), that my father recently gave me. We have been contemplating adding jib/genoa tracks rather than continue to use the toe rail for the blocks. Has anyone done this with their vintage H 30's? Thanks! MDA Restless #006
Why? Surely a40 year old boat has more pressing needs than this.
 
Nov 26, 2012
1,654
C&C 40-2 Berkeley
It's all about sail trim

That sounds like a decision you will have to make based on what you want out of the boat. I recommend doing some reading on sail trim. I am sure you know basic sail trim but I mean read up on more sophisticated sail trim and then decide whether it makes sense. In a nutshell, you will be able to sheet in closer to the boats center line and you will be able to adjust the cars more easily. Both of these things will allow for better sail trim. It will not be cheap though so that's why a little due diligence is a good idea. For the record, I like the idea as I like tinkering with sail trim to get the boat humming along. It's part of the fun for me.
 
Sep 25, 2008
7,403
Alden 50 Sarasota, Florida
It's difficult to prioritize without knowing what equipment you currently have such as larger winches, main sheet traveler, condition of sails, lines and a lot of other stuff
 
Jan 22, 2008
1,483
Hunter 37 C sloop Punta Gorda FL
That sounds like a decision you will have to make based on what you want out of the boat. I recommend doing some reading on sail trim. I am sure you know basic sail trim but I mean read up on more sophisticated sail trim and then decide whether it makes sense. In a nutshell, you will be able to sheet in closer to the boats center line and you will be able to adjust the cars more easily. Both of these things will allow for better sail trim. It will not be cheap though so that's why a little due diligence is a good idea. For the record, I like the idea as I like tinkering with sail trim to get the boat humming along. It's part of the fun for me.
You can only trim in to the shrouds. Don't know 30 's but on my 37 aft lowers are near the rail. Little to gain with tracks
 
May 24, 2004
7,164
CC 30 South Florida
I don't think with the large overlapping Genoas tracks would make much difference in sail trim from the rail mounted blocks.
 

Johnb

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Jan 22, 2008
1,461
Hunter 37-cutter Richmond CA
Cheaper, quicker and easier to experiment with would be a barber hauler.
 
Jun 21, 2007
2,117
Hunter Cherubini 36_80-82 Sausalito / San Francisco Bay
Cheaper, quicker and easier to experiment with would be a barber hauler.
I have a Cherubini Hunter 36, also with no jib sheet tracks.

I also have debated installing them. But have not done so for a few reasons:

- Notwithstanding the $'s, to do the installation right, the bolts need to go through the deck and be fastened with nuts from underneath. This entails cutting openings in the ceiling of the interior fiberglass liner to gain access. I am sure that I could have found a way to cover the openings with say some decorative white plastic sheeting or teak boards. But a lot of bother.
- I like the minimalist clean look of my deck.
- Experimenting with the barber hauler concept as suggested below by Johnb-- for hauling the jib sheet towards the center line to mimic what an inboard track would do -- I really didn't notice much improvement . Also, my jib's leeward tell tales along the luff tended to break at almost the same angle to the wind as without the barberhauler. Maybe for racing, sheeting more towards the center line would provide more of a competitive edge. But for me doing only recreational sailing, installing inside tracks looked like a questionable trade-off.

I have read that pointing angle has much to do with the the shape of the hull and keel under the water. Also newer sails that are not bellied out might have more effect than moving the sheet angle mid ships by only 12" or so?
 

braol

.
Apr 16, 2014
348
Hunter 27 Rebel 16 Great Lakes Naval Base, IL
You can only trim in to the shrouds. Don't know 30 's but on my 37 aft lowers are near the rail. Little to gain with tracks
A few things:
1) With a #1 or smaller (anything that is less than 100% of your fore-triangle) you can, actually, sheet "inside" the shrouds...because you are in front of them. Of course with a Genoa you can't...but you wouldn't want to anyhow.

2) Many sails actually have a limited sheet angle adjustability. Racers are looking for every last ounce of drive from their sails, so their ability to make small adjustments along a jib track are vital. If you want the ability to sheet in closer to the centerline, but want to save money, what I would do is experiment with your current sails to find the typical, best sheeting angle (at typical wind speed range you sail in) and put an eyebolt through your deck at that spot (with a sturdy backing plate or course). You'd have to put holes and bolts/screws through your deck at that spot anyhow if you did jib tracks, so it's not like you're ruining your deck... But with the eyebolt to sheet to you can see if this is something you might want to persue in the future with an actual jib track.

3) Another option is the barber hauler mentioned...essentially a modified, old fashioned lizard: a strong, 2-3 foot or so line with two eyes, one end shackled to your toe rail, and a block attached to the other. Unlike a traditional lizard, connect another line to the free (block) end and run this line to another block on the OPPOSITE toe rail. Use this second line to pull the lizard towards centerline...in essence sheeting your jibsheets closer to centerline. (You'll need one lizard per side, of course...) It does work...well enough for a cruising boat at least. My understanding is that a true barber hauler pulls the sheet DOWN to change sheeting angle, not in, but I could be wrong. Maybe call this a lizard hauler???

4) Don't listen to those that think money is better spent on other things with an older boat. Of course there is, but the essence of sailing is more about your heart than your head...otherwise none of us would be involved. As long as the boat is in safe working condition HAVE AT IT!!!!
 
Jun 21, 2007
2,117
Hunter Cherubini 36_80-82 Sausalito / San Francisco Bay
Re the shroud location observations.

Yes, many boats have very inside located shrouds where they intersect into the deck say very close to the cabin top. So they are better suited to benefit from jib sheeting tracks mounted towards the center line.

Looking at photos of the Cherubini H30, the shroud location into the deck seems to be much as my Cherubini H36 = about six or so inches inside the toe rail.

On my boat:

-With toe rail sheeting and
- My ~110 jib and
- My sheets quite tight and
- In any wind velocity of say +10kts and
- On a close-haul ...

The foot of my jib flies outside of the upper (cap) shroud by about 9-12".

I would expect the same for the H30?

My past barber-hauler experiments enabled me to move the "effective" sheet angle much closer to center line. And the jib foot could be pulled in enough that it touches the cap shroud. But as I have mentioned already, I didn't see much if any difference in pointing as far as the angle into the wind where the luff tell-tales begin to break. So I have been reluctant to install inside tracks just for recreational sailing.

Braol: Good point to install a statically placed pad-eye to act as a sheeting point. I have never seen this suggestion before. Great solution for boats that tend to fly say a fully deplolyed 100 -110 jib 90% of the time. Yes, depending on the wind strength, one should move the sheeting point either for or aft. But for recreational sailing, I would think that is a secondary adjustment compared to the benefits of being able to sheet more inside. So that pad-eye if installed at the right location ... could become a permanent fixture! Our toe rail sheeting is continually adjustable fore/aft using snap shackle blocks. The same block could be detached from the toe rail to the inside pad-eye just as easy. Good suggestion!

Another factor not yet mentioned (although it is inferred with Braols's "Of course with a Genoa you can't...but you wouldn't want to anyhow) is that the toe rail is the best sheeting location for a fully deployed 135 genoa which tends to be common "equipment" for boats sailing in typically low or moderate wind environments. This because for a 135, the sheeting location is much further aft than say a for 100 and toe rail sheeting for a 135 is probably the sweet spot.

On inside located shroud performance boats without a toe rail to sheet to, they tend to have two sheeting tracks on each side installed on the deck. For the high wind shorter foot jibs, one is more forward and on the main deck right at the cabin top housing ... or sometimes even on the cabin top itself. For the larger genoa's, the second track is more aft and is mounted on the main deck way outside towards the toe-rail.

I have also observed performance boats with four jib sheets attached to the clew. For close-haul sailing in moderate to high winds, they use the sheet set that is routed inside the shrouds to an inside track which might even be on the cabin top. For beam or broad reach sailing they use the sheet set that is routed outside of the shrouds to the outside track mounted on the deck further aft. Such an arrangement requires a good crew to keep the slack sheets from flailing.
 

malyea

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Dec 15, 2009
236
'87 Irwin 43 Sea Breeze
Oh what the heck...... ;-)

If it were me - kind of is, I own and casually race a '82 H30 - I would probably spend my money first on a new set of sails before the jib tracks.
 
Last edited:
Jun 5, 2010
1,123
Hunter 25 Burlington NJ
What Rardi said

Rardi makes some good points about the sheeting angles. For most of us with furlers (making for lousy sail trim) and other goodies, we're not going to notice or benefit from very precise sail trimming. Pull the thing in against the spreader boots and see what you get.

The barberhaul is a good idea too; but, again, it's not the clew location that's limiting you, it's the center of the sail pulled against the shrouds. So aside from putting a crease in the sail shape, I don't know what a barberhaul is going to do for you with a 135 or 150. (Remember that barberhauls came into prominence during the early IOR, 1968-1974, when boats were deplorably wide at the shrouds and narrower sheeting angles were just a matter of sanity. We with Hunters don't have that problem.)

The one benefit to taking the genoa blocks off the rail is the preserving of the rail. Stainless-steel snatch-block shackles wreak hell on the old aluminum-- and this is a part that is, more or less, utterly irreplaceable. The constant sawing of those shackles over the years has probably cut grooves into the aluminum itself, let alone destroyed the anodizing. Wichard and some others make rubber-padded mounting eyes to install in the toerail; but they are very expensive (perhaps I should say VERY EXPENSIVE) and you'd need maybe three each side (since they don't remove very quickly, not like snatch blocks) to provide some variation in sheeting angle or for different sails. That's an investment of about $1200.

As an alternative you could use Dyneema loops; but despite all Dyneema's strength it's still able to be cut with a knife, and rather quickly (hence the ORC requiring it for lifelines at sea) and that sharp edge of the toerail openings would make short work of it.

The one real fear I have about installing genoa track on Hunter decks is what you will do about the core material. The moment you start drilling holes in the single most vulnerable spot of any older Hunter, the moment you condemn the boat to major health concerns for ever. You'll have to provide adequate backing plates, like out of G-10; you'll have to bush all the holes with compression tubes, like out of G-10, and you'll definitely have to bed it with 5200-- and for this there is NO substitute. These are three bits of advice from my expertise which too many people with much less experience than I have seem to gainsay on here; why I don't know.

And, of course, you could always guess wrong and install the tracks on the wrong angle or at the wrong distance aft from the mast; and then what do you have?

Best, of course, is to experiment amply. You may find many other solutions that could do other things for you. The last bit of advice I read on here may be best of all-- get new sails. The boat didn't sail all that badly when it was new-- merely bringing it closer to an as-new condition may be the very safest, cheapest, and most technologically advantageous of all your options.
 

sunman

.
Jul 29, 2009
112
Mac Mac 26D Suwannee
did anyone here have/use them then take them off their boat because they werent useful at all ?
install'em, get back w/us in a yr or 2 and let us know from your own experiences;)
 

braol

.
Apr 16, 2014
348
Hunter 27 Rebel 16 Great Lakes Naval Base, IL
You'll have to provide adequate backing plates, like out of G-10; you'll have to bush all the holes with compression tubes, and you'll definitely have to bed it with 5200-- and for this there is NO substitute.
I really like the idea of compression tubes for use with through-deck fittings!

My question is, could one drill an oversized hole, fill w/epoxy, drill to size, fit the through-deck tube, and then use butyl tape under the deck hardware, rather than 5200???
 
Nov 17, 2014
13
Catalina 30 3099 Louisville
A lot of people do that on their deck fittings to prevent it from leaking into the core. I just got a 77 H30 and had to replace the balsa over the cabin top. Stuff turns into mulch if it gets wet.
 

braol

.
Apr 16, 2014
348
Hunter 27 Rebel 16 Great Lakes Naval Base, IL
A lot of people do that on their deck fittings to prevent it from leaking into the core. I just got a 77 H30 and had to replace the balsa over the cabin top. Stuff turns into mulch if it gets wet.
Technical question: I assume you cut away the deck fiberglass and replaced your core that way? Or did you cut away the cabin liner? The deck would make more sense I suppose. Oh, and did you have to scrape away and vacuum the old balsa, or did it pull away in sheets? I was just wondering.
 
Nov 17, 2014
13
Catalina 30 3099 Louisville
Technical question: I assume you cut away the deck fiberglass and replaced your core that way? Or did you cut away the cabin liner? The deck would make more sense I suppose. Oh, and did you have to scrape away and vacuum the old balsa, or did it pull away in sheets? I was just wondering.
Top down, and it's kind of a mix between scraping scooping and vacuuming.
 

Blaise

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Jan 22, 2008
359
Hunter 37-cutter Bradenton
Yes tracks make a big difference. I would invite all you guys in the south Florida area to sail with me on a Sunday afternoon during one of our river races in front of the BYC, and decide for yourselves. You can also look at the pictures of Midnight Sun that have been posted.

By the way, Crest Aluminum makes new toerails for our boats. I have them on mine.