Water filter

Don S/V ILLusion · Jan 20, 2015

The lack of technical info and specs is noticeably absent. Magic dust?

JohnShannon · Jan 20, 2015

sodium ion is per Wiki 120 pm or 0.12nm so much smaller than 15nm holes
This will desalinate

http://www.katadyn.com/usen/katadyn...inators-manual-survivors/katadyn-survivor-06/

Ralph Johnstone · Jan 20, 2015

Don S/V ILLusion said:
The lack of technical info and specs is noticeably absent. Magic dust?

I would tend to say more like snake oil. And processes 6,000 liters ? ? ? ? WOW this sounds too good to be true. Oh wait, it probably is too good to be true

.

It definitely won't clean up salt water as this requires pressure to overcome the osmotic pressure difference between pure water and brine.

IMO if you are taking on drinking water which is questionable, as ours often is up north, I'd stick to carried potable water for drinking and cooking.

Delezynski · Jan 20, 2015

All,

In our cruising we have not had ANY problems due to bad water.

BUT, it's because we take care of the systems aboard.

First, the ONLY water that goes into our tanks comes from our water maker or goes through our UV fill system. That includes water from even the best marinas! You can see our short Youtube video on it at;
http://youtu.be/9JXvLxdflK0

AND, once the water is in our tanks, we have a second filter at the galley. We also posted a short video on it at;
http://youtu.be/4JO36LSGdN8

Just a thought for you.

Greg

Don S/V ILLusion · Jan 20, 2015

All U Get said:
Hi Don,

Found the website that has some tech info.
http://www.lifesaversystems.com/

All U Get

Tried sifting through all the associated links. Sounds like a small carbon filter and some unspecified membrane. The first thing that makes me skeptical is the so-called EPA "approval" but EPA DOESNT approve devices. Only designates performance standards.

Absent any real data or specs, one can only guess at the efficacy of these filters or if they are any better/worse than the dozens of similar ones.

Good marketing seems to be their forte.

Benny17441 · Jan 20, 2015

If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

RichH · Jan 20, 2015

Consider that ALL of such membrane and adsorption systems have quite low 'dirt capacity' before plugging ... usually on the order of 30-50 grams of debris per 5 sq. ft. of surface area. This devices 'looks' to be in the order of 1 sq. ft. area, therefore probably ~10 grams capacity ... or about the same amount of 'toe jam' that a cotton sock sheds per day.

Consider that ALL of such membrane systems are not 'absolute' in retention ... they are 'statistical reduction' devices .... never even close to 100% efficient. In industry, such membrane systems are ALWAYS followed by simple 'absolute 100%' or 'sterilizing' (≥10E13 reduction) or log-reduction filtration (≥10E7 reduction) ... at the µM size of the smallest common bacteria.

As one who's been deeply involved in 'extreme' technical filtration and such membranes for most of my working lifetime, I offer the simple recommendation: dont waste your money on expensive 'glitz' marketing; marketing that is unsupported and is not totally honest.
I guess Im saying 'snake oil', here.

Use such ONLY in an extreme emergency .... your body's immune system can defend against a statistical 'few' microorganisms and 'diluted chemicals' ... for the 'short term'.

If something looks too-good-to-be-true ... it usually is.

Jackdaw · Jan 21, 2015

If you need to remove salt then reverse osmosis is the ONLY game in town, full stop.

Hand powered Katadyn models start at about a grand. It will work for generating a boat's water supply, but I can guarantee it will become the LEAST favorite job on the boat. Your handshake will improve however.

We sailed on a boat that had two hydro-generators on the transom, generating more than enough power to run the big RO system mounted under deck. Catch enough fish and you NEVER have to go to land.

Don S/V ILLusion · Jan 21, 2015

All U Get said:
All the filters seem to have the 15 nanometers or so listed in the specs. We currently have an under the sink model which does 0.1 micron nominal according to their specs. Is that 10 or 100 nanometers? We carry over 200 gallons of fresh water and 20 gallons of potable for drinking. We started with small bottles, then gallon jugs, and finally jerry cans.

At some point we would like to escape the dependence on fresh water stops (1 of the big five). Desalinators are pricey and increase the power needs for the boat. They also have issues like time, noise, maintenance, etc. that kinda detract from the simple quiet life we sought. So anything hand operated that can put out a few gallons per hour is of interest. We've looked through the Camping/Hunting shops and most of the low tech filters are about the same. Your help is appreciated.

All U Get

0.1 microns = 100 nanometers.

capta · Jan 21, 2015

All U Get said:
At some point we would like to escape the dependence on fresh water stops (1 of the big five). Desalinators are pricey and increase the power needs for the boat. They also have issues like time, noise, maintenance, etc. that kinda detract from the simple quiet life we sought.
All U Get

I put together our 30/40 gph watermaker for about 2k.Started when I found a new $2k pump for $900 and built the system around that. Other than changing the inlet water filters monthly, maintenance is very low.
I would NEVER go back to lugging h2o. No more questionable water in our tanks; no more dirt or over chlorinated water in our tanks. No more buying water or bottled water; our water is every bit as good as bottled water and likely better than some.
The hardest part of this whole thing for me is breaking a 50 year habit of water conservation. I've crossed the Atlantic with 60 gallons of water for three people. It is so hard to let the water run in the sink or shower (a shower at SEA, no say it isn't so) or wash the DECK!!!! with fresh water.
I consider our water maker to be a necessity for a cruising boat. Let's put it this way; I've had the watermaker for 3 years and still don't have AIS!

Delezynski · Jan 21, 2015

capta said:
I put together our 30/40 gph watermaker for about 2k.Started when I found a new $2k pump for $900 and built the system around that. Other than changing the inlet water filters monthly, maintenance is very low.
I would NEVER go back to lugging h2o. No more questionable water in our tanks; no more dirt or over chlorinated water in our tanks. No more buying water or bottled water; our water is every bit as good as bottled water and likely better than some.
The hardest part of this whole thing for me is breaking a 50 year habit of water conservation. I've crossed the Atlantic with 60 gallons of water for three people. It is so hard to let the water run in the sink or shower (a shower at SEA, no say it isn't so) or wash the DECK!!!! with fresh water.
I consider our water maker to be a necessity for a cruising boat. Let's put it this way; I've had the watermaker for 3 years and still don't have AIS!

About the same with us aboard Guenevere since 2004, except we didn't build our watermaker. We were able spend months without getting close to a marina or water stop. We KNEW our water was fresh and GOOD.

Another point, we were in the Sea of Cortez, off a small village on the Baja. There was a drought and the village had lost about half there goats because of it. I had the solar panels out and used the engine for a time to make extra water that we shared with people from the village. I CAN TELL YOU, it made our day!!! After that, we would find fresh goat cheese and other items in the cockpit.

Greg

Ron20324 · Jan 21, 2015

Delezynski said:
...Another point, we were in the Sea of Cortez, off a small village on the Baja. There was a drought and the village had lost about half there goats because of it. I had the solar panels out and used the engine for a time to make extra water that we shared with people from the village. I CAN TELL YOU, it made our day!!! After that, we would find fresh goat cheese and other items in the cockpit.
...

Good on 'ya, mate:theman:

RichH · Jan 21, 2015

Jackdaw said:
If you need to remove salt then reverse osmosis is the ONLY game in town, full stop.

Hand powered Katadyn models start at about a grand. It will work for generating a boat's water supply, but I can guarantee it will become the LEAST favorite job on the boat. Your handshake will improve however.

We sailed on a boat that had two hydro-generators on the transom, generating more than enough power to run the big RO system mounted under deck. Catch enough fish and you NEVER have to go to land.

One must really be careful with RO as its not an 'absolute' retention. Such membranes are full of cracks, and 'interstices' etc. and only provide a 'statistical reduction'. Its quite easy for even bacteria (0.2µM - ~10µM) to 'pass through' an RO membrane and begin to 'grow' on the downstream side.

The message here is NEVER use a watermaker in polluted water such as near a city or large town or even 'anchorages'. Such will enhance the statistical probability that you wont be drinking $#iT.

Jackdaw · Jan 21, 2015

RichH said:
One must really be careful with RO as its not an 'absolute' retention. Such membranes are full of cracks, and 'interstices' etc. and only provide a 'statistical reduction'. Its quite easy for even bacteria (0.2µM - ~10µM) to 'pass through' an RO membrane and begin to 'grow' on the downstream side.

The message here is NEVER use a watermaker in polluted water such as near a city or large town or even 'anchorages'. Such will enhance the statistical probability that you wont be drinking $#iT.

Indeed. The system we used had a 'test' mode tap, that was allowed to run for 10 minutes before a sample was taken and tested. Only them was the water allowed to flow into one of the two tanks.

capta · Jan 21, 2015

Jackdaw said:
Indeed. The system we used had a 'test' mode tap, that was allowed to run for 10 minutes before a sample was taken and tested. Only them was the water allowed to flow into one of the two tanks.

I found an inline tds meter that was only about $35.00. It has two separate contacts, so in theory one could also monitor the salt content of the water, as well. It rarely takes more than 3 minutes for the solids (salt) to drop to an acceptable level. There are inline UV sterilizers available which purport to kill any harmful bacteria, but they are a bit pricy and require a new bulb annually.
We never make water in an anchorage after a heavy rain and are usually the farthest boat out, so I don't worry too much about water quality. Another good reason not to tuck all the way into an anchorage, by the beach.

RichH · Jan 21, 2015

For those interested, here's a quite reasonable RO/watermaker DIY system: https://sites.google.com/site/llichtveld/newpage
Best is to direct provide the power from engine ... with an electrical clutched power take off, uaing at least "B40" vee belts.

Id add the advice: to be sure to select the feed pump to be rated for continuous duty, be thermally protected and wired to an alarm so if there is interruption of flow to the high pressure pump, the system automatically shuts down and you dont destroy the expensive hi pressure pump.

Note- the article was written ~2000, expect the component prices to have significantly increased since that time; but, ebay, etc. is still good source for new and used components. Look for 'pressure washer' pumps, etc.

Brian S · Jan 21, 2015

I'm gonna take this back to the beginning, and ask All U Get, the original poster, what is the goal of your filter?

Are you looking to clean up fresh water to make it potable? Are you looking to make your own tank water supply taste better? Make the drinking water from your tanks pathogen free? Or make fresh water from salt?

This would drive what type of treatment you'd need. If you wife complains that the water out of the tanks tastes "icky" I bet you could get by with an activated charcoal filter such as a Brita.

I have a backpacking filter I bought once for a kayaking trip at Lake George, NY. Having grown up on a salt water bay, I thought I was pretty clever when I realized that Lake George is fresh water, and if I bought this backpacking filter, I wouldn't need to pack 6 liters of water into the kayak, freeing up considerable space. I spent a week or so, just pumping water right out of the lake with the filter. I suppose that filter would work fine on my current lake, but it's just as easy to carry the 2 gallon plastic spigot jug up to the marina bathhouse and fill it from the spigot once a weekend

Your mileage may vary!