Trailer Sailors and Marine Sanitation

shemandr · Dec 3, 2014

oooh...buckets of poo. What office do I go to for a refund if they leak, or burst or just yuck? I once sailed an ocean leg on a boat on which the head didn't work. The owner's solution was grocery plastic bags, in the head and then tied up and dumped overboard. Crew members would emerge from below with the facial expression of someone who had their nose rubbed in poo. No one in the cockpit would stand in their way to the lee combing. I still can't look at a plastic grocery bag without that image. Needless to say, at the grocery when they ask, "Paper or Plastic", it's paper. I still wonder about those bags of poo floating around out there.

Sumner · Dec 3, 2014

Used the wag bags, actually the Reliance Double Doodie bags you can find at Walmart and on-line. Love them because they give you freedom from going ashore and nothing to clean out.

We carried our 'you know what' for 7 weeks in Florida with no problems. Took about 3 days per bag and then moved the bag into one of the 5 gallon buckets with the sealed lids you can buy at Home Depot for a couple bucks. End of trip throw the whole bucket in the dumpster so no one has to smell your shi.....

It does smell during actual usage but you can cut down on that with the stuff you add to tanks. I have the actual head so that it seals tight and doesn't ...

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor/inside-index.html

.... smell with a bag in there and we found that you could have the bags in the 5 gallon containers for a long time if you also put the container in a large zip-lock bag like they sell to store cloths in.

Now the only problem with them we found is are they legal in the Florida Keys? I think after reading all of the regs I could find that on a boat under 26 feet they are and the Mac is 25'-11" but still if you go to say Marathon you can't stay there with that situation. They give you a week to install a MSD type head that can be pumped. We left before the week was up but still worried about being hassled in the keys. The same in Canadian waters now. You have to have a MSD porta-pottie that is connected to a line for pump-outs.

Since I'm going back to the Keys and hope to go to Canada again I'm in the process right now of installing a MSD porta-pottie (Thetford 260) in the Mac so if I'm in an area where it is required I'll have it but otherwise will continue to use the Double Doodie head. Might be one of the few 26 foot trailerable boats with 2 heads

.

The MSD porta-pottie was the cheap part of this exercise ($112). Since I also want to be able to pump it out if I was outside the 3 mile limit I've installed a macerator pump also that cost more than the head. You add the head, pump (if you go that route), and the fittings and hoses or PVC plumbing and it does add up.

I have a lot of work into this mod (about done) and it is so specific to using the 260 head that I just bought a second one in case somewhere along the line the first one 'craps out'. I don't want to find out that it has been discontinued.

I don't like planning a trip around where are you going to get pumped out at or where can I dump my porta-pottie every few days and some of the places we went that wasn't even an option or an easy one. The bags sure solve all of that. I was very skeptical of using them when I first read about them but not now.

I'll post the mod later when I have time,

Sumner

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topcat0399 · Dec 3, 2014

We converted chemical porta potty into bucket with waggy baggy. Looks and works just fine.

hehehe the poop subect again. Every few weeks...

monkeybars · Dec 4, 2014

It's all gonna end up back in the eco system anyway, why add to the problem using buckets and plastic bags(the biggest eco disaster in history), howbout a little garden trowel an stop on shore, or just go for a quick swim and make like a sea lion.

walt · Dec 4, 2014

funny and disgusting all at the same time

. Maybe save those five gallon completely full of wag bag buckets to be dropped on those ISIS guys... sort of like recycling..

If you are in one of those areas with the head restrictions, how do you get caught with the wrong head? Is if routine to have someone stop and board you and inspect?

Sumner · Dec 4, 2014

walt said:
funny and disgusting all at the same time. Maybe save those five gallon completely full of wag bag buckets to be dropped on those ISIS guys... sort of like recycling..

If you are in one of those areas with the head restrictions, how do you get caught with the wrong head? Is if routine to have someone stop and board you and inspect?

We were stopped by 3 different aggencies in Florida and only one was interested in the head and that was at Marco Island and was the Sherrif's department checking to make sure boats there weren't discharging overboard. Once they saw the bag deal and no line going to a thru-hull they were happy. Got stopped by Homeland Security and they wanted to see our paperwork and got stopped by game and fish and they wanted to check our safety gear. Only one that didn't stop us but who we saw often was the Coast Guard although there are still other agencies down in the Keys that can stop you I believe.

Coming back into the States from Canada at the border they spent about 45 minutes looking through the Suburban and the boat and finally released us but the last question was what was in those silver zip-lock bags

. I guess they didn't open one

. At that time Canada I don't think had the restrictions or we didn't know of them. They still might not have them on lakes in the Western Providences (anyone know) but know they do for the eastern ones at least on the Great Lakes.

The not excepting the bags on all waters is crazy as it is the only method that can you can use over any length of time that allows you not to dump. I'm sure there are people with the MSD porta-potties or even bigger holding tanks that find them full because they misjudged using them or the weather was bad and they had to hole up for a few days and the tanks filled. Now what do they do? They are going to go in a bucket and put it over the side. Simple as that. Even though I increase the holding tank on the Endeavour to 20 gallons I'll take the bags on her. That way I can use the tank but if full I can switch to the bags. Also when I'm ready to to to the yard and put the boat up I can flush the tank out good at sea past the 3 mile limit and then use the bags for the few days going back to the yard and when I get there will have an empty, somewhat clean holding tank.

On the two heads I'll show them the one that is suppose to be in use at the time. The other one won't be in use. In the Keys I won't have a bag in the one and there will be sh**t in the other one

.

At Marathon they don't check but the pump-out boat is setup on a schedule to pump you out and if they get to the boat and it doesn't have a pump-out fitting on it then they will report that. If you have one they will hook up and pump and then move to the next boat. I'm not so interesting in Marathon that much as we didn't really like it that much. Might stay there for a couple days to re-supply but not long term like some do. I'm interested in going back and see some of the remote areas between Marathon and Key West on the gulf side that we didn't go to because we started to fear getting stopped and ticketed,

Sumner

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Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

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Benny17441 · Dec 4, 2014

We have a Starwind 223 trailerable and for it we prefer a portapotty. The main reason against a built in head is that in a small boat every space has to pull double duty depending on the configuration the boat is placed in. The boat manufacturer allowed a space under the V-Berth to keep a portapotty. We find that space is adequate to store the potty but not convenient for use. When underway we set the potty in the middle of the cabin floor and we keep a curtain rolled up on a rod to install and provide privacy. At night or when the boat is in sleeping configuration the potty goes on the cockpit to be used "al fresco". Obviously when at Marinas we use their facilities. Have used the bucket and it works, it is just a PIA to be handling and storing those liners or when not available plastic bags. There is one option which you failed to mention and that is to "GO" overboard. It is legal discharge and very low maintenance. The downside is that most ladies find it disgusting and that you may have to clip in to a harness or tie a rope around your waist to avoid falling overboard. The main drawback about a porta potty is carrying the tank for disposal or sailing out to the 3 mile limit. Over the years we have learned that it is wise to conserve available space in the small holding tank so whenever possible it is wise to pee overboard.

topcat0399 · Dec 4, 2014

Benny17441 said:
We have a Starwind 223 trailerable and for it we prefer a portapotty. The main reason against a built in head is that in a small boat every space has to pull double duty depending on the configuration the boat is placed in. The boat manufacturer allowed a space under the V-Berth to keep a portapotty. We find that space is adequate to store the potty but not convenient for use. When underway we set the potty in the middle of the cabin floor and we keep a curtain rolled up on a rod to install and provide privacy. At night or when the boat is in sleeping configuration the potty goes on the cockpit to be used "al fresco". Obviously when at Marinas we use their facilities. Have used the bucket and it works, it is just a PIA to be handling and storing those liners or when not available plastic bags. There is one option which you failed to mention and that is to "GO" overboard. It is legal discharge and very low maintenance. The downside is that most ladies find it disgusting and that you may have to clip in to a harness or tie a rope around your waist to avoid falling overboard. The main drawback about a porta potty is carrying the tank for disposal or sailing out to the 3 mile limit. Over the years we have learned that it is wise to conserve available space in the small holding tank so whenever possible it is wise to pee overboard.

Honestly - moving a porta potty around in a boat all the time sounds like a hassle to me. Whatever works for ya!

sesmith · Dec 4, 2014

We had a porta potty on our previous boat, but it filled up quickly with it's small tank and was a pain to cart and dump. We also used wag bags on that boat. They're easy, but kind of gross (IMO).

Current boat has a marine head with 10 gal holding tank. It works great when it doesn't clog, vent doesn't clog, joker valve doesn't stick and when the hoses don't stink. Hoses are now replaced, vent clear, pump and joker valve new. Next season, it should work like a champ....maybe with no issues. The 10 gal tank is on the small side when cruising.

If I had it to do over, I might try one of the composters...probably a C-head.

Crazy Dave Condon · Dec 5, 2014

White vinegar flushed thru the lines into the holding tank sanitizes them.

walt · Dec 5, 2014

I might try one of the composters...probably a C-head

Are these good for all the Canadian and Florida waters?

Seems like a good idea but is someone inspecting going to looking for MSD written on the box and have to see some pumpout method?

I go through zebra mussel inspections a lot and what is required varies all over the place depending on the inspector. And a very small minority of them are just pricks about things.

MrBill_FLL · Dec 5, 2014

Sum, do you know the regulations sited that require a MSD?

that doesn't make any sense to me..

-and I have found myself on day 4 of a 5 day trip with a almost full pottie. that was a shock and unpleasant experience... thus the change to the bags.

Sumner · Dec 5, 2014

MrBill_FLL said:
Sum, do you know the regulations sited that require a MSD?

that doesn't make any sense to me..

-and I have found myself on day 4 of a 5 day trip with a almost full pottie. that was a shock and unpleasant experience... thus the change to the bags.

Let me get back on that. I took a quick look and the links I had are now broken.

Two problems. The Feds have their rules and the state of FL has theirs and Florida's seems to exclude a boat under 26 feet, but the people at Marathon (Boot Key Harbor) didn't agree with that when we stayed there and they claim (at least they did when we were there) that their requirements were applicipal over the whole Keys Sanctuary. I don't think so but also being out of state didn't want to hang around and try and prove that in court if we were ticketed.

Canada is very clear on the rule there, at least in eastern Canada but the situation in the Keys is very confusing, at least to me,

Sumner

Sumner · Dec 5, 2014

Bad Obsession said:
You know......It would be nice if everyone would get on the same sheet of music and let us know what verse they are on.

As a Law Enforcement Officer I find it irritating when people are really trying to follow the rules but the rules aren't clear. If you are going to have something that is enforceable, make sure it makes sense and everyone knows what it means so it can be followed....

Amen, down there you are in so many different jurisdictions the rules are so screwed up I'll bet even the guys trying to enforce them are not sure. I'll say one thing. The 3 different law enforcement entities we did deal with were all nice and there was no problem.

Bad Obsession said:
.... I really couldn't imagine my wife going for that! No way! Keep the admiral happy if she comes aboard.

The mod my wife liked most on the whole boat....

... yep she hated thinking about squeezing into the little head that is standard on the Mac that you can't stand up in and literally can't wipe your you know what in and then there is that little seat on those porta-potties.

But of course except for one 3 day trip there was only us on the boat. If one goes out with others or their wife doesn't like them in the bathroom while she is in it then this probably isn't the mod for them.

I actually detest dealing with the porta-pottie and hauling it and cleaning it more than dealing with the bags. If you deal with the bags the other person does nothing.

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/MacgregorTrips-3-Powell09/09-10-16-Powell-09.html

... and the bags are easy and you are never trying to wash something out.

The bags are in two parts. There is a smaller/stronger outer bag that has the bag you see above inside of it. You pull the inside bag out and wrap it around the top of the bucket (or porta-pottie). The outer smaller/stronger bag is down inside the bucket bottom and around this black bag at its bottom.

After you decide you don't want it any fuller (some only use them once). You just fold that large inner bag into the smaller one and zip that one up and store it in your 5 gallon sealed bucket. Easier than what I see people do back east that walk their dog and pick that up

,

Sumner

finding41 · Dec 5, 2014

Sumner, " Easier than what I see people do back east that walk their dog and pick that up ,"
One of the reasons we don't have a dog!
(I've always wanted to say "Whatcha got in the bag?" when I pass a dog walker on the street.)
Because of poop:
Florida is doing some kind of crazy stuff right now concerning boats and anchoring. Right now each jurisdiction has it's own laws that are not being enforced with any consistency.
There are a few very rich and influential people that live on water front property that don't like to see boats in there view. I think the state is still hearing from both concerned party's about a possible no anchoring law that would not allow boats to anchor overnight. At least within 300' of land.
(I wrote the governor about this proposed law. {I'm Canadian!} If passed it will really mess things up for all boaters.) And guess what will happen in other states... Maybe Canada...
It's not good.
Here is a link to a blog of a guy named Wally Moran. He cruises the ICW and has been in the thick of the discussions. Read it and you may want to write a letter too.
http://bloggingtheicw.blogspot.ca/2014/11/time-flies.html

This year here in Canada our Parliament changed the navigable water act.... No debate about it... They just did it. Now we don't have the right to use the waterways we used to... Who does this benefit? (Hint... Anyone that is doing anything they don't want people to see what they are doing in the middle of nowhere where the only legal public access is by water... Oil and gas development?)

CaptDon01 · Dec 5, 2014

My experience has been that I need a head that gives a sense of privacy and comfortable, and is a fairly close resemblance to the head facilities at the house to keep the Admiral enjoying time on the boat with me. Our first C-22 had a full marine head set-up with a 12 gallon bladder tank under the V-berth. Our current C-22 has the entire V-berth area converted for luggage storage and the semi-enclosed head,(curtain pulled for privacy). We have a porta-potty with a 2.5 gallon flush water capacity and a 5 gallon holding tank. It's capable of being converted to a pump-out head, but with the 5 gallon capacity, and only the Admiral and me cruising, it's proved to be very satisfactory.

Don

srust58 · Dec 6, 2014

We use a porti potty. Or I should say my wife uses it. I just take my shovel and use the shore "facilities". I do a lot of wilderness canoe trips so I am used to hanging my ass over a downed tree trunk. Pumpouts can be a moot point in northern Superior where it can be 100 miles between pumpouts. In all the years we have sailed I have never dumped it overboard and always take it ashore at least 150 feet inland and away from any obvious hiking path/route then dig a hole to dump it and cover up. We don't use any of the nasty chemical additives. We travel in remote areas and I have never even seen any law enforcement agent to check on me. You may have a higher chance of getting checked in a marina but I can't even recall the last time we stayed in a marina. We launch and leave. When possible we use the proper facilities but all to often they are few and far between. I don't worry about it.... legal or not.

We met some folks last summer who had one of those composting toilets on a 32 footer. It fit in the standard head space and was not much bigger than the usual marine head. It seemed to work very well and they swore by it. I just don't have the room.

Charlie Jones s/v Tehani · Dec 7, 2014

I use an MSD, plumbed for pump out. Converted while in Boot Key Harbor. I've never regretted it. Pump out facilities are so frequent all around the coast, many free ( I've been from Annapolis to Port Isabel,Texas) and most in the $5 range that it just plain makes no sense to do other wise for long term sailing. It's the water we use for crying out loud !! With two aboard I could go about 7 days with no pump out, single hand, 14 to 15 days. No big problem.

Boot Key includes a weekly pump in the dinghy dockage fees, as do many other places, including for example, the Capitol Yacht Club on Washington Channel, DC ( anchored out), and Sunset Bay Marina, Stuart, Fla.(on a mooring Just to name a few.

I spent time in Boot Key Harbor in the very early 80's when there were TWO pumpout facilities in the entire Keys, and Boot Key stunk. Last time I was there, the water was MUCH cleaner. And at that time I was one of THREE boats between Sisters Creek and the draw bridge.

Set up for pump out, or carry it home.