Damaged Jibs Comment

[bffatcat]

Ive been sailing for over 50 years: Yesterday,
sunday I was out with my wife in heavy air gusts to 30
I reefed my main and changed my genoa down to a working Jib. I`m 77 my wife is 75 we had no problems. What I did see is many of the boats out chose to roller furl their genoa jibs down to hallf size as opposed to changing down to a smaller jib Quite a few of them had badly ballooned stretched out areas along the luff where an area that should have been somewhere in the center of the jib, but do to a rolldown became the leading edge I have always understood that cloth that was designed for the luff is a heavily reinforced tape, And any area aft of the luff was not designed to act as a luff. For every boat I saw with a reefed main and working jib there were 10 with partially rolled jibs. Ive had roller furling for many years, and its not that difficult for me to change the jib down. About 15 min work at my age. What puzzles me is, Do these sailors with bigger boats, not understand this, or is it about not wanting to do the work involved. A couple of sails in heavy weather with a rolled down genoa, and its gonna stretch out. I welcome any comments on this topic

 

[Charlie Jones s/v Tehani]

One reason I still use hank ons . And my working jib has a reef in it that takes it to storm jib size, just like a reef in a main sail. Little more trouble, but far better sail shape.

 

[victorhoisington]

In my case its as much a matter of economics as anything. My boat allowance doesn't allow for a new jib so, I'm stuck with the one and only genoa I have for all occasions. I do have a foam luff which helps with the shape when furled but for now don't have anything else available.

That being said, if you are careful while furling you can avoid the bag in the middle and can actually get a reasonable shape. My rig is a fractional rig so most of my power comes from the main anyway, When the wind pipes up I tend to furl the jib to about 50% and then if needed can reef the main as necessary to maintain stability.

Due to my situation, I hadn't really given it much thought but, you are right changing headsails shouldn't be our last resort.

I'm looking forward to what others have to say.

Victor

 

[Skipper]

Many don't move the jib cars forward when furling, causing bad shape and even flogging.

 

[All U Get]

Due to the size of our headsails we just roll them and use the staysail, (cutter rig). In nearly calm winds (less than 5 kts) we can change out a headsail. I would imagine, like us, other boaters couldn't pull down enough to get a large sail off the foil. We would also need someone at the bow, helm, and mast which leaves us one short for the drill. We usually make changes well in advance of any weather.

All U Get

 

[gettinthere]

How big a boat are we talking here?
Maybe I'm too lazy but I'm not rasslin the 135 genoa on my 42' boat. What I should do is install an inner forestay so I can fly a small sail there when needed. But thats more cash than I want to spend.

 

[David in Sandusky]

A different approach

Our 110 is our standard genny. It will roll down to a 90 with good shape when the jib leads are moved forward. With the main on the third reef, we are comfortable at 35 knots with the genny at 90.

In light winds, we are seldom hard on the wind. So we roll up our genny, and deploy our asymmetric spin - much more effective on a reach than our 130!

IMHO, a big genny 130-155 is a racing sail, good for going to the windward mark in a light wind, or in moderate winds with lots of rail meat! And really the wrong sail for any other conditions. But many cruisers buy the sail based on racing needs with little thought about their real usage.

 

[Joe]

The REAL truth is than many folks don't even know how to remove their headsails. Or they do it so rarely they are intimidated changing a sail on the water.

This especially true for those equipped with the captive halyard style furlers.

Can't really see how economics would rule out acquiring a smaller headsail if one considered it important. I'll bet the motor works though....

 

[Brian S]

I see this a lot at my lake, folks sailing with often a handkerchief of jib out, with a full main (on a fractional rig.)

With a fractional rig that gets most of it's power from the main, a far better strategy is to reef the main first.

I think they do it because it's easier to roll in (or not roll out in the first place) the jib. Or they perceive it's easier than tucking in a reef in the main. Yesterday, I started off with full canvas, got blown over a few time with +15 knot gusts, so decided to take it easy, hove-to, tucked in my reef, got a drink below, and off I went.

IMO, the requirements for a genoa intended to be reefed are 1) foam luff for better furled shape and 2) extra reinforcement at common reef points on leech and foot. Without those extra reinforcing patches, they are just stretching out and destroying the sail.

 

[tommays]

Both of mine seem to roll up without issue ?





And that is after owning a A J24 for as really LONG TIME and hanks going back to the 80s

 

[bffatcat]

your gonna spend a lot more cash buying a new jib after you wreck the old one by not changing down

 

[gettinthere]

Thanks for answering my question.

 

[Ray Bowles]

bffatcat, I think that today many newer sailors haven't the experience or knowledge of sail shape or proper trim that long time sailors do. We have the benefit of many years of hank on sailing and that spilled over to proper sail size for roller furling sailing. Economics play a major roll as does seat time. For both reasons I can say I've been there too.
When the going gets tough the tough get going. All the rest of us are working on it.
Ray

 

[Sanfelice]

I remember when one sail maker, North I believe, was touting a furling jib/genoa, that had different weight cloth ranging from light to heavier from the luff to the leach. I guess it didn't sell too well. Also, many furlers used to state they were not for reefing but only for furling. Famet used to advertise that it was for furling and reefing which was unusual. Yes it is easier to get a better set with hank on sails but cost, ease of use win out today.

 

[DougM]

Roller reefing the jib seems to have become an acceptable practice over the years as furlers have improved in design. Personally, its not my favorite approach, but it works. If I could figure out a way to rig a staysail, I might do that. Since I am not racing, and don't sail In really nasty conditions, I will live with the idea of partially furling the jib, but only after I have already put a second reef in the main.

When I got the boat, the factory 105 jib already had two reef marks indicated on the foot of the jib, so I just used those when I did reef. I would like to come up with a way to modify my stock jib cars so that they could be adjusted from the cockpit. Anyway, me impression is that the OEM sails leave a lot to be desired in the shape department even fresh out of the box.

Even though I can get the boat to sail flat and comfortably with a double reef in the main, and a completely furled jib, I end up with more weather helm and about two knots less speed, than if I have a partially furled jib deployed.

 

[shemandr]

I don't like sailing with the jib partially furled. It may be just my own prejudice. When we had the 356 we would do it on occasion, at the request of my first mate. I have to admit it wasn't awful. That's not easy for me to do. But it was a 110 that still had a decent shape. If a larger jib is used and it is blown out I would think there could be a problem with the depth of draft. As sails age the draft moves aft and deepens. So you would roll up the forward flat part of the sail and leave the deep part. I would think you would still have heel and would be dragging the rudder. I would much rather have a smaller sail that has a flat shape.
Occasionally, I've been on some else's boat who will do this on a Wed PM race. Besides wanting to put a brown paper bag over my head, it didn't turn out that bad. He does it to make tacking easier for the start - which as crew I should appreciate.
So, different strokes for different folks.

 

[Jackdaw]

Congratulations on being out there!

I think your observations and processes are based on your current boat. You would be talking a different story if your boat was 4 feet longer.

Sails (in size, load and weight) grow as a square as boat length goes up. What is doable on a 26 footer is harder on a 30, downright difficult on a 35, and impossible on a 40.

I have friends with a 50 footer, and when they go out as a couple, they do not raise the main, because they physically CANNOT.

You comment also points out why most modern boats are fractional, with non-overlapping headsails. They can fly their jib into the upper 20 without a thought. Simply flatten, then reef, the main.

One other thing, the vast majority of load on a sail is on the corners, not the edges. The luff of a jib is actually rather lightly loaded.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Here's another answer. Large furling genoas on big boats are HEAVY, especially if they are equipped with a foam luff and Sunbrella leech protection. The foam luff does allow them to flake down well on the deck when lowered; and they are difficult to fold and bag. Also, a tape luff comes out of the foil groove when lowered; so, there's nothing there but you to hold on to the sail (i.e., no hanks) to keep it on the boat as it comes down. As one fellow said, I don't wish to go rasslin' a heavy genoa that I cannot fold and stow easily when the wind is getting up to 30 kt just to break out another, slightly less heavy one, for another hour of day sailing. Compared to hanks, tape drives also have a LOT of friction so you typically have to winch them half the way up to finish. If you're going to use furling genoas at all you're basically stuck with what you have up that day unless you have experienced crew to go fetch it down and put up another one!

 

[Gunni]

I suspect that people who ask these questions have never wrestled a 150 genoa to the deck on a +40 ft sailboat...then attempt to bag it. All the while short-handed. A bagged out tired sail is a bagged out tired sail, 30kts will make it obvious. Neil Pryde does some amazing things with their luff foam installation and my 150 genoa looks just marvelous furled up to 100%, until about 30kts. At that point it gets rolled up, the furler tied off, and the ATN Gale Sail goes up. That is also when the chop sends the <40 footers to the barn. Other than the hardcore, the fun factor gets pretty slim at +30kts.

 

[Rick D]

Piling On...

...FWIW, we don't get all that much heavy air in SoCal that isn't storm-related. However, when I had our ODay 27, we had both a 150 genoa and a 100 jib. The ODay was a little under canvassed for local conditions, so the 150 was flown a lot and a larger foot on the main helped balance it. When necessary, I changed down to the 100 first and then reefed the main since that's what the boat liked. My wife hated me getting up on the foredeck in high teen wind and chop to do it tho and I was in my 40's. Besides, it was hard not to get the v-berth a bit wet further fostering marital discord.
I had a lot of experience on a 125 mile race this April tho in the 40.5. Started with 20-25 knots. I had a single reef in and the 133 gennie full. Well balanced (fractional rig). The wind built to 30-35 overnight and we were way overpowered especially with 40-45 knot squalls. After a knockdown, I took in a second reef in the main and rolled the 133 up to about a 100 or more... maybe a 90 in the photos. The gennie has a foam luff. I think I was well past the third reef mark on the gennie but the shape wasn't bad and the boat stayed well balanced for the next 8 hours. I do have Garhauer adjustable jib cars which help a lot and the reefing is single line. To state the obvious, in that sea state and wind speed, trying to shift down to a smaller head sail would have been a non-starter.