Repowering with outboard - Thoughts on these?

[maine89]

I currently have an ODay 27 with an inboard Vire 7

The boat was sitting at least 4 years without any attention when I bought her but the engines started right up. However it has had some reliability issues and honestly I am just trying to get into sailing and am not yet a master of every boating system. I'm sure the engine needs more love than I can give and no mechanic will go near it because 1) "I've never heard of that engine, what is it an inboard?" 2) Looking at my engine is not worth their time 3) "I wouldn't dare touch it, if something breaks I'll never find a replacement part for it"

I understand there are some replacement part resources (for certain parts) on sites like http://gofree.indigo.ie/~vire7/ but I wouldn't know where to start.

I'm really thinking repowering with an outboard would make the most sense. That way I can source replacement parts easily, rip it off and take it to a mechanic if I'm short on time, and otherwise feel more confident in my engine.

I've read that 2-stroke is ideal for weight and reliability/simplicity but it is hard to find any from this millennium.

I'm unsure about how well it will be mounted because I'm not within easy range of the boat to take transom measurements but I'm assuming others are able to have outboards on similar boats.

Here is what I was able to find. The 25" shaft to keep in the water in rougher seas, 6-9.8 hp (current inboard is 7hp and does "ok"...).

2014 Tohatsu 9.8 hp Four-Stroke Outboard
http://www.onlineoutboards.com/Tohatsu-9-8-hp-MFS9-8A3EFUL.html
25" shaft
92lbs according to onlineoutboards.com
electric start is bound to be nice
12V 80W 6A Alternator

2014 Nissan 6 hp Four-Stroke Outboard (Sail Pro)
59 LBS
Manual start
25" shaft
http://www.onlineoutboards.com/Nissan-6-hp-NSF6C4.html
12V 60W 5A Alternator

Outboard Bracket
http://www.drmarine.com/proddetail.asp?prod=DR71057

Open to any and all thoughts! Thank you!

 

[caguy]

Judy B's Bijou did that on a Catalina 27 while they were having their engine worked on. They installed a nice removable mounting plat so the bracket could be easily removed when the inboard was done. I would not go with anything less than a 10hp. I have the Tohatsu 18 on mine. I converted it to an electric start and with remote shifting and throttling. Well worth the effort. Unbelievable amount of storage space where the engine used to be. I like Judy B's mount bracket, but found a used double spring Garelick.

 

[maine89]

Judy B's Bijou did that on a Catalina 27 while they were having their engine worked on. They installed a nice removable mounting plat so the bracket could be easily removed when the inboard was done. I would not go with anything less than a 10hp. I have the Tohatsu 18 on mine. I converted it to an electric start and with remote shifting and throttling. Well worth the effort. Unbelievable amount of storage space where the engine used to be. I like Judy B's mount bracket, but found a used double spring Garelick.

That you for your reply caguy!

Is outboard 20" or 25"? I am not able to see the 25" for over 9.8HP. For me a removable bracker doesn't seem as necessary because this is likely a permanent change but if you happen to know which bracket they used it couldn't hurt to look!

Yes the storage space does appeal to me. I could make a larger sleeping area back there as well.

 

[Ward H]

I understand a lot of people like inboards but you sound like me, I want the simplicity of an outboard. And Admiral says no gas inside the cabin, one smell of diesel and she is out of there.
As to length, go for the 25". If nothing else, it will allow you to mount the motor a bit higher and therefore easier to reach.
10hp minimum.
Try to find one with the shifter on the OB tiller. The Tohatsu's I looked at had the shifter on the front of the cowling. My Yamaha has the shifter just behind the twist grip throttle, a lot easier to reach. Some have the shifter built into the throttle grip. Turn one way for forward and the other for reverse.
Depending on docking space you may not need to extend controls into cockpit. Just lock the OB in straight position and steer with the tiller/wheel. I need to maneuver so I use both OB tiller and boat tiller. My OB is mounted to the end of tiller just reaches the rub rail.
Consider power tilt. You then don't need to have an adjustable mount and you won't have to reach over to lift out of the water.
That D&R Marine motor bracket is designed for 2 stroke OBs. (Only 5" wide) 4 strokes have more torque and a bracket rated for 4 stroke will be wider. On a smaller motor that might not matter but for a 10hp probably not a good idea.
Be sure to beef up the inside of the transom as it probably was not built to carry an OB.
Pretty sure I have seen 27s with factory mounts for outboards instead of inboards. Might want to search for sale listings to find photos for ideas.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[maine89]

I understand a lot of people like inboards but you sound like me, I want the simplicity of an outboard. And Admiral says no gas inside the cabin, one smell of diesel and she is out of there.
As to length, go for the 25". If nothing else, it will allow you to mount the motor a bit higher and therefore easier to reach.
10hp minimum.
Try to find one with the shifter on the OB tiller. The Tohatsu's I looked at had the shifter on the front of the cowling. My Yamaha has the shifter just behind the twist grip throttle, a lot easier to reach. Some have the shifter built into the throttle grip. Turn one way for forward and the other for reverse.
Depending on docking space you may not need to extend controls into cockpit. Just lock the OB in straight position and steer with the tiller/wheel. I need to maneuver so I use both OB tiller and boat tiller. My OB is mounted to the end of tiller just reaches the rub rail.
Consider power tilt. You then don't need to have an adjustable mount and you won't have to reach over to lift out of the water.
That D&R Marine motor bracket is designed for 2 stroke OBs. (Only 5" wide) 4 strokes have more torque and a bracket rated for 4 stroke will be wider. On a smaller motor that might not matter but for a 10hp probably not a good idea.
Be sure to beef up the inside of the transom as it probably was not built to carry an OB.
Pretty sure I have seen 27s with factory mounts for outboards instead of inboards. Might want to search for sale listings to find photos for ideas.
Just my 2 cents.

Thank you Ward!

The simplicity is a big factor yes. However, in typical boat fashion, even the "simple" solution isn't all that simple.

I can't seem to find a 25" shaft for over 10hp. I agree that the longer the better, both for chop and so I can have easier access. I'd like to make it as easy to start manually as possible because with my luck that is how I'll have to start it most of the time.

 

[maine89]

Sounds like you thinking something along the lines of http://www.onlineoutboards.com/Tohatsu-20-hp-MFS20CEFTL.html?

That's a lot of weight to manage for both me and the transom. Cost is start to take off too.

 

[Ward H]

My Yamaha High Thrust T9.9 X Long Shaft (25") w/ power tilt weighs in around 115 lbs.
Cost was about the same as the Tohatsu.
Pretty in the 10hp up range you will find electric start and probably for a reason. Also,
25 to 27' is probably the top end of outboard powered sailboats so that may be the reason that higher hp is not available in 25" shaft.
I found a couple references that 1hp for every 500 lbs of weight. Are you sure you need more than 10hp? I think it might depend on what/where your sailing.

You may be getting close to a repower cost wise. Then it is personal choice.
Neither option is cheap.

One reason I invested in a good OB is if I find another boat I want and it is OB powered, I CAN take the Yamaha with me. Can't do that with an inboard.

 

[maine89]

My Yamaha High Thrust T9.9 X Long Shaft (25") w/ power tilt weighs in around 115 lbs.
Cost was about the same as the Tohatsu.
Pretty in the 10hp up range you will find electric start and probably for a reason. Also,
25 to 27' is probably the top end of outboard powered sailboats so that may be the reason that higher hp is not available in 25" shaft.
I found a couple references that 1hp for every 500 lbs of weight. Are you sure you need more than 10hp? I think it might depend on what/where your sailing.

You may be getting close to a repower cost wise. Then it is personal choice.
Neither option is cheap.

One reason I invested in a good OB is if I find another boat I want and it is OB powered, I CAN take the Yamaha with me. Can't do that with an inboard.

Thanks Ward. MY thoughts exactly on taking the outboard with me. I listed my boat for sale for a while when considering a different boat and I couldn't get any serious bites when listing at even $2500 (just surveyed for twice that, not that it matters). If I did end up changing boats I would be better off taking the outboard and either keeping it or selling it by itself and practically giving the boat away.

I am not sure that I need more than 10hp but I'm not sure I don't. The vire 7 is a gas powered 2-stroke inboard. I was out in a small craft advisory and could not make it pointed into the wind but it could have been at half power due to poor condition/calibration. I eventually ran out of gas trying to make it back and someone was kind of enough to give me a pull.

 

[maine89]

I also need a $1500 new rudder, have running rigging that may need to be replaced in the next year (local rigging person couldn't tell me for sure how old it was other than he didn't think it was original 1975)

Add a $3000 engine, bracket, work for reinforcing the transom, we're starting to get into territory where there may be ready to sale boats for $6k?

However, I did just have a survey (I can send it if anyone is willing to take a look) and the devil you know if better than the devil you don't.

Edit: I take that back. Looking at the prices of boats it seems more cost effective to put the money into what I have. Especially if the majority of the cost is the removable outboard.

 

[Ward H]

I also need a $1500 new rudder, have running rigging that may need to be replaced in the next year (local rigging person couldn't tell me for sure how old it was other than he didn't think it was original 1975)

Add a $3000 engine, bracket, work for reinforcing the transom, we're starting to get into territory where there may be ready to sale boats for $6k?

However, I did just have a survey (I can send it if anyone is willing to take a look) and the devil you know if better than the devil you don't.

Edit: I take that back. Looking at the prices of boats it seems more cost effective to put the money into what I have. Especially if the majority of the cost is the removable outboard.

Well, here is my take on that.
New OB aside, I have put about 3 times what I paid for my boat, into it. (I did get it cheap) Yep, ready to sail when I bought it but I wanted to add a few things and fix a few things and projects added up fast. Plus some deferred maintenance.
Could I have bought a better boat with that money? Sure, but I would have had to put all that money up front instead of spending it spread out over a period of time and I wouldn't have had the fun of making it MY boat. My boat was sound and gave me a good platform to build on with little initial investment.
I could have easily put that all that money into a boat only to find we hated it and were now stuck with a a larger investment in a boat we didn't want. By starting out with a good base at a lower cost, we had time to decide if we liked it enough to sink money into it. We did and we did.

 

[Brian S]

I would not get that outboard bracket you link to in the original post. That's a design sold by Garelick, and they kinda suck. Very small handle for lifting. I would contact Garhauer and see if you can get one of their SS outboard brackets. Very nice looking design. They do not show the outboard bracket in their on-line catalog http://garhauermarine.com/catalog.cfm but Dave Scobie of Sage Marine said it's their preferred and standard mount for the Sage 17.

You could look for a "Sailpro" model outboard, usually 9.9 or 10 hp, 25" long shaft, high thrust prop, and alternator all stock.

2 stroke are lighter than 4 stroke, but 4 stroke are much easier on gas. And, you can't really buy new 2 strokes anymore. Some lakes/areas prohibit 2 stroke.

 

[maine89]

I would not get that outboard bracket you link to in the original post. That's a design sold by Garelick, and they kinda suck. Very small handle for lifting. I would contact Garhauer and see if you can get one of their SS outboard brackets. Very nice looking design. They do not show the outboard bracket in their on-line catalog http://garhauermarine.com/catalog.cfm but Dave Scobie of Sage Marine said it's their preferred and standard mount for the Sage 17.

You could look for a "Sailpro" model outboard, usually 9.9 or 10 hp, 25" long shaft, high thrust prop, and alternator all stock.

2 stroke are lighter than 4 stroke, but 4 stroke are much easier on gas. And, you can't really buy new 2 strokes anymore. Some lakes/areas prohibit 2 stroke.

Thanks for your reply Brian!

From searching around various threads this seems to be a popular one:
http://www.garelick.com/Aluminum-Auxiliary-Motor-Bracket-For-4-Stroke-Motors

The Sailpros I think are just 6hp.

http://www.onlineoutboards.com/Tohatsu-9-8-hp-MFS9-8A3EFUL.html is similar to the other specs with the 9.8, 25", high thrust and alternator but some have voiced concern here and in other threads that 10hp isn't enough for a 6,000 boat. I don't have experience with that so I'd prefer to lean towards a 15 or 20hp like http://www.onlineoutboards.com/Tohatsu-20-hp-MFS20CEFTL.html

In this case the issue shifts to making/mounting the wedge block and backing plates. Something outside of my experience and not thoroughly documented online but not impossible, just uncomfortable learning when it could result in ripping fiberglass off my transom that's all.

 

[Brian S]

Yeah, that 4 stroke Garelick bracket would work.

But I still like the look of the Garhauer:

 

[Ward H]

Garhauer does makes some nice hardware. You will need to check the raise height of the bracket you choose. Some will raise your OB much higher than others.
About the wedge on the transom. I am not an authority on this but newer brackets I have seen, including my 2002 OMC bracket has an adjustable OB mount so the OB can be made vertical. Also, the two newer motors I have had have adjustable tilt.
I don't think you really need a wedge with that much adjustment, unless the transom is really angled.
On my 25 and at least one other I have seen, there is a 1/2" sheet of something white, Starboard?, on both the outside of the transom and inside of the transom. It is bolted through around the edges. Then the bracket is bolted through both plates with 4 bolts. I have some photos I will try to remember to post tonight. You might find them in another O'day thread on outboard.
My impression is that older 2 stroke mounts were simpler and did not have the adjustments on them so the wedge was needed to get a vertical mounting surface.

 

[Ward H]

http://www.sailboatlistings.com/sailimg/m/36330/main.jpg

Found this photo showing an OB on a 27. No wedge.

 

[maine89]

http://www.sailboatlistings.com/sailimg/m/36330/main.jpg

Found this photo showing an OB on a 27. No wedge.

Interesting Ward, I wonder how you can tell if a wedge is needed. You'd think some of the brackets would allow for repositioning to avoid wedges.

Figure 6 of the install guide at http://www.garelick.com/files/12.295.pdf shows maybe needing a wedge based on the cavitation plate, but then you don't know until you buy the outboard and the bracket?

 

[25yearslater]

You're getting some good options here Maine. Glad to hear you have opted to hang on to her. Here is a link to a little something that might interest you. http://www.sailingmagazine.net/boats/6-used-boat-notebook/745-oday-27.html The 27 is something special. It is a piece of yacht design history in that Alan Gurney designed this thing. It was the smallest production boat he designed. The legendary Windward Passage was also his design. She is currently undergoing a refit that promises to boost her performance to a contender in the current maxiboat fleet. So as you mull over your options consider perhaps going for a sail on one before you decide on one course over another. If your schedule permits I am planning a late April launch and you are welcome to put your hand to the tiller of YOT to get an idea of what a 27 can and will do. It can be a bit intimidating as the performance is quite remarkable for a boat of this age. At least you can fully assess how far you want to go with yours.

 

[maine89]

You're getting some good options here Maine. Glad to hear you have opted to hang on to her. Here is a link to a little something that might interest you. http://www.sailingmagazine.net/boats/6-used-boat-notebook/745-oday-27.html The 27 is something special. It is a piece of yacht design history in that Alan Gurney designed this thing. It was the smallest production boat he designed. The legendary Windward Passage was also his design. She is currently undergoing a refit that promises to boost her performance to a contender in the current maxiboat fleet. So as you mull over your options consider perhaps going for a sail on one before you decide on one course over another. If your schedule permits I am planning a late April launch and you are welcome to put your hand to the tiller of YOT to get an idea of what a 27 can and will do. It can be a bit intimidating as the performance is quite remarkable for a boat of this age. At least you can fully assess how far you want to go with yours.

Thanks 25yearslater. I would really prefer to keep this boat. I don't think I could handle searching for another. I've learned a lot about this boat and she floats so that's a good start

I've been receiving some good information and I'm keeping good notes. Hopefully I can get some good sailing time in this year so I can refuel my boat ambition!

 

[25yearslater]

Hi Ward H. Just a note: The picture you have is the 272. The type Maine89 has is the 27. The 272 is quite a bit lighter. The 27 is a brute by comparison. You are right though in that some 27s did have the outboard.

 

[maine89]

Hi Ward H. Just a note: The picture you have is the 272. The type Maine89 has is the 27. The 272 is quite a bit lighter. The 27 is a brute by comparison. You are right though in that some 27s did have the outboard.

Yes the 272 is about 5000lbs compared to the 27 which is closer to 6500-7000.

I've seen a lot of uncertainty in regards to the HP. It's an unfortunately an important detail. The 9.8 has a 5" longer shaft which will come in handy in chop. But if they cannot get me to my mooring with the wind pushing at my bow then it will not serve its purpose. The larger engines like 20HP only seem to go to 20" shaft but would have a lot more power (and not a negligible increase in cost/weight)