Soft area in deck of 1981 27' Hunter

topcat0399 · Feb 10, 2014

Welcome to the boards. I know nothing of hunters other than looking at them in a marina.

Do you have any idea if that area has a core in it (probably does; either plywood or balsa I'd guess).

A soft deck core may or may not be a problem.
If its a place that gets walked on a lot or actually supports something then its best to fix it, Otherwise the glass will just keep flexing and cracking and possibly just fail.

If it was an area immediately adjacent to the mast then I would definitely fix it just to help keep anything else from sagging (a plastic boat hull and deck are a "system").

Perhaps have someone walk the deck while you watch underneath. Don't be afraid to have them "bounce".

If you plan to paint in the near future now is the time to fix it, and that area you have pictured is an easy fix area. Just cut open the top layer dig out the rot and glue in the new glue cut out back down. Sand to your pleasure of fit and finish. Had to do every core on my boat - no longer intimidating - just a PIA.

my .00002 cents

topcat0399 · Feb 10, 2014

Some people go from below, some go from above. Its your choice - each has pros and cons.

But thats a big flat area - easy to finish up after repair from the top. Not like doing a side deck that curves in 6 directions.

Most of the force from the mast is in compression and goes straight down. The stays take the side loads.

Hopefully other Hunter 27 owners will chime in of which I'm not.

Ian McGain · Feb 11, 2014

Suggest you pick-up a book on the West system. It reads above as it is time to "drill and fill". Walk on your topside and bounce on your toes in bare feet. You will feel the area that needs work. You can also tap with a small plastic hammer. The good and the bad have a different sound. Go out side this area and drill from the top. I would also suggest you drill several very small holes from the bottom, as weep holes. Let dry for a while and fill with epoxy. After this you will need to do around your standing rigging, if they go through your deck. Check your chain plates that are not bolted direct to fiberglass stringers. Take a flathead screw driver and press the wood along side the middle chain plate. Pay special attention to the starboard side.

Good luck and Thank You for your service.

Ian
s/v Meant to Be

topcat0399 · Feb 11, 2014

gsfaulk said:
Thanks Ian. So you are saying just drilling holes and letting dry out will possibly stiffen this area up and not have to cut out and replace?

From what I understand the drilling method can work. I've also heard where it didn't do much to solve the problem. I just decided that when I did it - if I was going to mess all that - by golly I'm making a 20 year repair and be done.

Do the the tap test and see how much you may be dealing with. It's simple.

taptaptap taptap clunk clunk tap taptap tap taptap tap clunk ....

I use the handle end of a screwdriver (round end).

kito · Feb 11, 2014

gsfaulk said:
Thanks Ian. So you are saying just drilling holes and letting dry out will possibly stiffen this area up and not have to cut out and replace?

I believe the drilling part is to dry out the area first and then inject West System into the holes. Cut a piece of pegboard the shape of the area and use as a drilling template. If you sand the holes flush and repaint the deck with an anti-skid like Kiwigrip, I doubt you would notice that area was even repaired.

Nelsonhow · Feb 12, 2014

After the tap test if you suspect a we core you can drill a few small pilot holes to see of the core is wet or not. If the area under the mast shoe is wet it needs to be fixed or you may loose the mast in a blow.. On the other areas it's not so critical. I'd fix from above and use gravity to help the process the spider cracks are not of much concern generally unless the go all they way through the surface an allow water to migrate to the core which is not likely.

I loved my H27 but be careful what you invest In it. In top condition it worth maybe $10-12k. Make it safe and enjoy. But a $600 boat is usually $600 for a reason.

Just my 2 cents......

Ian McGain · Feb 13, 2014

More important than the soft spots on your deck is the integrity of your standing rigging and the post on which your mast stands. Soft spots will not sink your boat but this will.
Drill and Fill will fix the deck and then you sand and paint with a one step Interlux paint.

Ian

DianaOfBurlington · Feb 17, 2014

What Kito said. Standard first-fix for this problem in the industry. I do it all the time.

sandpiper10471 · Feb 17, 2014

You can drill all the holes you like. Unless you are in a desert area, it won't dry out for years. Cut off the top skin, replace the core and reglass. West system has made a ton of money selling expensive product to do this. Better, cheaper, faster alternatives available. Lots of info in the archives.

DianaOfBurlington · Feb 18, 2014

In defense of the epoxy method

sandpiper10471 said:
You can drill all the holes you like. Unless you are in a desert area, it won't dry out for years. Cut off the top skin, replace the core and reglass. West system has made a ton of money selling expensive product to do this. Better, cheaper, faster alternatives available. Lots of info in the archives.

I've been playing with WEST epoxy since it came out in the early '70s and I haven't found a better, cheaper, faster way to repair rotted core. My boat was out of the water about 2 seasons when I started on it. The deck dried out surprisingly quickly (or was never very much wet in the first place). My deck is now so stiff and strong you could hold a teenagers' hip-hop dance party on it. I can fix any spot of 4 square feet in about four hours of a weekend (you can paint it later).

You might check the archives for the *right* way to do this. I put one of my responses on my own blog and got tons of hits on it (and not a few bits of work).

Anyone who starts chopping out the outer skin of the deck thinking this is the *best* way is sadly misinformed and is in for a horrendously large and unnecessary job-- aside from ruining the appearance and structural integrity of his boat before he knows he can fix the problem and bring it back to usability. I don't even want to start into all the ways in which this method is just plain awful. Of course there are nuances to each instance; and it's not quite as simply done as some people (even me, at times) make it sound; but of all the options this is most often the best one.

It's true I do this for a living; but before I get accused of 'bias' and 'selling my services' let me just point out that, if I were truly interested in making oodles of money from unsuspecting clients, I'd find the hardest and most time-consuming way to attempt this job; and I don't-- in fact I specify the best, cheapest and fastest way to do it-- and I have never had a structural failure nor a customer complain from having done it this way.

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pvtpotter · Mar 7, 2014

Not too sure about S/V Diana's statement (although the work done in her blog is extraordinary for a rebuild).
You may want to attack it from the outside (after you assess the extent of damage using a moisture meter or with the step flex technique you used). The reason to repair from the outside being when you do the actual laying of the fiberglass, you can put pressure on the top which is similar to the vacuum bagging techniques used these days where pressure is applied (not rolled out, hand-laid like it used to be). On a small O'day I did the two drill holes and put runny west system in there. Just wait to see it come out of the bottom drill hole. Beware you could unintentionally create running drips of epoxy that you will not be able to get up. Use heavy weight plastic sheeting taped down to help prevent that.
Be sure after you drill the holes that you use a syringe and squeeze some acetone in the area. That will make the drying out process go much more quickly (be sure to cover it so the rain can't get to it - yet it needs to breathe).
I think it is all about how much you really want to put into it. If you are serious about the boat, grind out the area, let it dry with the acetone, and use cloth soaked in a west system mix of adhesive (ground glass) filler 75% and micro balloons (fairing filler) 25%.
The drilling holes and using a syringe of epoxy is a decent fix, but for sure grinding it out and laying new glass is the best way. If you grind and put new fiberglass down you will have messed up the finish and probably cut into the non-skid. It will be difficult, almost impossible to make the nonskid look seamless. (just bite the bullet and cut out a large area which you can finish later and get a somewhat uniform look.)
There should be no flex in the fiberglass. Flex is very bad.
Thanks for posting, gsfaulk.

ooh rah !

pvtpotter · Mar 7, 2014

gsfaulk said:
Thanks for the input. Yes, I plan to completely repaint top to bottom, inside and out, so I felt like now would be the time to make any necessary repairs. Just wasn't sure if this particular area had a little spring to it normally or if I should be concerned. All around and right up to the mast base seems solid with no bounce whatsoever. Didn't want to cut open the deck if not needed. Also, I may open her up from inside and have a look and not break the integrity of the deck. Thoughts...

Re-glass, don't do the holes if you plan to refinish!

DianaOfBurlington · Mar 13, 2014

Against core blocks.

This issue always results in some debate!

First, drilling and filling holes from the topside is the best way to do it if you are going to refinish/repaint the deck. Fill and fair over the holes when you're done and choose a nonskid color. The only time this represents a potential problem is when the boat has a molded-in nonskid pattern and the pattern itself isn't readily available or easy to 'fake'. In this case there is some sense in carefully slicing out a (too-large) section of deck, keeping your blade to the plain-gelcoat (non-nonskid) areas which will be easier to fair and recoat when you drop the removed section of deck back in. Be sure to grind will back from the seam before 'glassing it over. I use a softish pad on a 5-6" sander with like 36-40 grit, applying the radius of the sanding pad, when sanding at a slight angle, to be the area I will re-'glass. This sort of guarantees you a staggered layup to fill the valley. Be sure too to lay up narrower 'glass over wider, never the reverse.

Second-- most importantly-- I see too many people replacing core with some block of something-- plywood, G-10, new balsa, prefab fiberglass board, even (worst of all!) Starboard. Unless this replacement core material is well bonded to the existing stuff, by virtue of something that's both structural and fluid enough to flow farther in, a block of replacement material will add little if any serious strength. Think about it-- no matter how heavy the material you use, there will always be a seam in the core material. Don't count on edge-grain as some kind of structural bond. Not for a deck. Decks are prone to flexing-- this seam can snap and leave you with nothing. Also, remember that, in a cored deck, the 'glass under the core material is much, much thinner (usually two layers of 1-1/2-oz mat or cloth) compared to the heavier stuff (typically 1/4" or more of woven roving) of the 'glass above the core. When you slice out the top section and replace core with a block-- no matter how large in area-- you compromise the deck structure, period. And what's holding up the core then? --that thin layer of 'glass on the bottom that, alone, you could almost put your foot through.

I have seen people repair even mast-step areas like this (shudder)!

The pouring-in-epoxy method has much to recommend it. First, it's epoxy, not polyester, so, when cured, it's much more resistant to water intrusion (don't ever believe, if you've found water in one area, that there can't possibly be water somewhere else that can continue to migrate through the strata). Second, it goes in as a saturating liquid, doing its job ('WEST' = 'Wood-Epoxy Saturation Technique'). So it will travel even farther than you intend it to, which is only good. It will find further voids and fill them with something that will bond all the remaining material-- no matter what it is-- into one core structure. This is epoxy's great attribute and one that, in such cases as distintegrating core, should be taken advantage of.

I like PVT's idea of squeezing acetone into the holes first. Actually denatured alcohol will absorb water and evaporate (only much more slowly than acetone) and is what Gougeon Bros. recommend. Typically I thin out the epoxy with acetone as well-- this helps it flow a little better and when the acetone evaporates it leaves epoxy in places the epoxy's own viscosity would not have allowed it to go. Again, Gougeon Bros. recommends thinning their stuff with only denatured alcohol; but once I questioned them about it, citing 30-odd years of experience doing it like this, and they said very politely, 'Who are we to argue with the Cherubini success in wood-boat building?'

* * *

Alctel · Mar 14, 2014

The epoxy you use for pouring in - I guess you are using west systems 105 resin + 205 hardener with no additives?

rufus1138 · Mar 14, 2014

just wanna point out that if you use the drill and fill method it can definitely turn into something that balloons out of proportion quickly, keep in mind what we're dealing with here is a composite material....as in individual parts that on their own are weak and unsuitable for the task yet when combined in the correct manner perform wonderfully. epoxy resin is heavy and brittle in regards to flexing, fiberglass is floppy and cloth, put them together and you get awesome. fill a large area of decomposed deck core with epoxy and you have a brick, confirm how large the core problem is on the entire deck and formulate a plan of attack after you think about how much resin will be involved with the drill and fill, modern core material like coosa-board is much lighter than west system with a little sawdust in it.

DianaOfBurlington · Mar 21, 2014

Alctel--

Alctel said:
The epoxy you use for pouring in - I guess you are using west systems 105 resin + 205 hardener with no additives?

Exactly. I might thin it out a bit with acetone or denatured alcohol. Makes for easier 'flow' (though in warmer weather/climes it unadulterated epoxy flows just fine).

DianaOfBurlington · Mar 21, 2014

Rufus--

rufus1138 said:
just wanna point out that if you use the drill and fill method it can definitely turn into something that balloons out of proportion quickly.... fill a large area of decomposed deck core with epoxy and you have a brick, confirm how large the core problem is on the entire deck and formulate a plan of attack...

You're right, Rufus; but, honestly, I have never encountered such a large area that would make these concerns crucial. You're talking about a void that, almost invariably, is between 1/8" and 1/4" thick, over about a square foot or two of area; it might mean about 4 ounces of weight. The brittleness is actually not much of a problem because, as epoxy, it bonds so well to the upper and lower 'glass layers that it's not going to flex at all. There's nothing more comforting than a solid, rigid, deck structure under your feet. (When was the last time you felt secure driving over a bouncy bridge?)

The drill-and-fill method can get very messy if you drill too many holes in too small an area. Sound the suspect area by tapping with a hard mallet or hammer, ascertain the lower edge of it (downwise along the crown of the deck) and move up maybe 6-12 inches, no more, to drill a few holes to begin. When the holes overflow, STOP. I make a dam of masking tape below the holes to keep the dribble from going too far (after I let it run down over Diana's cabin windows once-- grrr). When that's kicked off (next day), sound again, a little farther up and both forward and aft of your remediated area. You may find the epoxy migrated forward or aft rather than down. Almost always the filling holes will appear as craters, sometimes rather deep. Move up another 6-8-12 inches and repeat the process.

Of course this all requires that you take precautions belowdecks. Any small holes in the underside of the 'glassed deck strata may leak epoxy. I once half-filled a newly-built drawer that had not been installed but was left lying in the pilot berth of a C44 when a tiny hole in the deck above it drained all my epoxy from a void about 8-9 feet forward on the (plywood) deck. (New drawer had to be made.) Oops!

Soft area in deck of 1981 27' Hunter

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