...just a quick note...all things being equal...boats in the PNW seem to be a bit more expensive than elsewhere. Perhaps due to more limited numbers, or maybe the lack of sun damage. Good luck.
my offer was rejected and countered.. cal 3-34
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1) can you get insurance, and what requirements will they want. (rigging/safety equip/ electrical, etc..) you could spend thousands getting it up to their minimum.
2) its a buyers market, especially for older sailboats, & this time of year.
if the seller is tired of the boat, that's on your side, as is time...
and I agree with others, 3k is nothing, if this is the right (or wrong) boat.
Good luck!
2) its a buyers market, especially for older sailboats, & this time of year.
if the seller is tired of the boat, that's on your side, as is time...
and I agree with others, 3k is nothing, if this is the right (or wrong) boat.
Good luck!
After you survey go back with an offer lower than original offer. The fact that it had water in it creates unknowns and unkinowns lower the value. Low BV - 10% at the most.
If you are in doubt drop it out. Everyone is correct about the cost of owning a larger boat. The bigger the more expenses just to slip, store, bottom paint, and all those little things that normally come up.
Talk to the surveyor and tell him/her the asking price. They should know from the informational books they have what a boat like that is roughly worth. Make sure the Surveyor specializes in sailboats, that's important. Ask your fellow sailors for recommendations.
Problems now reflect more problems later. Problems mean more money out of pocket. If you are in doubt walk away, remember you have the upper hand with money in hand.
Good Luck!
Talk to the surveyor and tell him/her the asking price. They should know from the informational books they have what a boat like that is roughly worth. Make sure the Surveyor specializes in sailboats, that's important. Ask your fellow sailors for recommendations.
Problems now reflect more problems later. Problems mean more money out of pocket. If you are in doubt walk away, remember you have the upper hand with money in hand.
Good Luck!
I can only judge by the shopping I did before I bought Windmistress for $14k and she was in very very good condition with several upgrades to the boat as delivered by Hunter in 1986. Based on my foray into the market, and I actually went aboard more than a 100 boats, what you are looking at seems overpriced. It is still a buyer's market and you are bargaining over a 35 year old boat that has not been ungraded and had water incursion. Reading the many posts on this forum, you will learn that there are surveys and there are surveys. Most surveys will tell you whether the more obvious and accessible areas of the boat are sound, but few will really delve into the crannys where some expensive repairs can be waiting. I am guessing that the Seattle/Vancouver area is a fertile one for good used sailboats. I imagine that for $15k you could find a much newer, or at least better maintained and/or improved boat than what you are looking at.
Survey
Be sure to have an oil analysis performed. If any water got into the engine this test will show it. If you are hesitating at all, skip it and go on to the next boat. There are plenty out there. Especially in South Florida.
Be sure to have an oil analysis performed. If any water got into the engine this test will show it. If you are hesitating at all, skip it and go on to the next boat. There are plenty out there. Especially in South Florida.
I am by no means an expert on the subject but spent 2 solid years looking for a boat before buying one. I would recommend patience also. And I would definitely pass on a boat that tried to sink due to lack of winterization. You have no idea what else in hiding in there.
16 large for a 37 year old boat? With known and possibly unknown issues? The other posters are right- for sure you will incur many thousands of bucks to put everything right, and then you will have a 37 year old boat in good shape.
I don't really know the used boat market, but given the general economy, and the belief that boat condition is everything, I'd walk away. An improperly winterized strainer is symptomatic of of neglect, ignorance, or a don't-care attitude of the owner- or all of the above.
I would keep sailing your present boat and keep looking.
I don't really know the used boat market, but given the general economy, and the belief that boat condition is everything, I'd walk away. An improperly winterized strainer is symptomatic of of neglect, ignorance, or a don't-care attitude of the owner- or all of the above.
I would keep sailing your present boat and keep looking.
As Jackdaw mentioned, the $3k difference on the initial price is almost irrelevant. The biggest costs are just around the corner. if you are moving form a 25 ft boat to a 34, you are moving to a different category (inboard, diesel, electronics, water system, waste system etc.) and higher costs for just about everything (mooring, launching etc.). You may have to spend several times as much the first year of ownership on various projects, improvements etc. to bring the boat to the state you like it.
I found that when moved from a 24' to a 27', the amount of maintenance grew almost exponentially.
I am not recommending to buy this one, but not because of the $3k difference.
I found that when moved from a 24' to a 27', the amount of maintenance grew almost exponentially.
I am not recommending to buy this one, but not because of the $3k difference.
First off I might agree to the counteroffer (or the lowest book price) with the following condition:
Minus out the boat yard cost of all repairs that you have not listed that are found with the surveyor.
From your description of the boat it is being offered in salvage mode....the owner doesn't have either the resources or energy to maximize his price. You are buying it as is and the price needs to reflect that. Personally I would run away from this deal.
Minus out the boat yard cost of all repairs that you have not listed that are found with the surveyor.
From your description of the boat it is being offered in salvage mode....the owner doesn't have either the resources or energy to maximize his price. You are buying it as is and the price needs to reflect that. Personally I would run away from this deal.
I'm with Ted
You seem to making a big boat size jump (not a bad thing of itself) but everything grows logarithmically with size, including costs. It sounds like this boat has the potential for more than a few niggling problems-I'm not a fan of sunken boats-even partially-too many unknowns.
I don't know how to came to conclude that this of two boats in the whole northwest would meet your needs, but I would suggest a re-appraisal. This is a buyers marked for classic plastic and will likely be forever-the next generations are not following in our footsteps in numbers. There are tons of great boats out there with owners who are dreaming with some of the prices asked. Last summer, I bought, at a local YMCA benefit auction, a 1978 Columbia 8.7 with an Atomic 4 for $1000 in good overall condition, but needing some TLC like yours-I ended up taking out everything for a total refinish and refurb-but I had plenty of economic room to play with-she just surveyed at $16,500 and she's in prime cosmetic and operating condition with lots of effort and $$ to make her very safe and liveable. The donor had been trying to sell it for $9000-she was survey values last year at 12-hardly anyone even looked-in part due to the gas A4 which everyone is scared of, without basis.
I'm sure there are alot of boats in your price range that might serve you better. I don't know what you require, your method of search, your skills etc. but this boat that you're considering is one I'd keep away from unless the deal was good enough to justify the risks of unknowns.
If you don't know boats that well, a survey is pretty useful both as a buying tool and to guide a work plan. Your insurance company will want one too and depending on defects another one might be required before they will cover you-you could go just liability as well, but self-insuring in that value area requires being able to absorb loss not only of hull, but all that you load her with.
I just googled the boat model and came up with a boat for $22K in Portland-is that her, with sunburst on dropboard?
Good Luck and Fair Winds, Will
You seem to making a big boat size jump (not a bad thing of itself) but everything grows logarithmically with size, including costs. It sounds like this boat has the potential for more than a few niggling problems-I'm not a fan of sunken boats-even partially-too many unknowns.
I don't know how to came to conclude that this of two boats in the whole northwest would meet your needs, but I would suggest a re-appraisal. This is a buyers marked for classic plastic and will likely be forever-the next generations are not following in our footsteps in numbers. There are tons of great boats out there with owners who are dreaming with some of the prices asked. Last summer, I bought, at a local YMCA benefit auction, a 1978 Columbia 8.7 with an Atomic 4 for $1000 in good overall condition, but needing some TLC like yours-I ended up taking out everything for a total refinish and refurb-but I had plenty of economic room to play with-she just surveyed at $16,500 and she's in prime cosmetic and operating condition with lots of effort and $$ to make her very safe and liveable. The donor had been trying to sell it for $9000-she was survey values last year at 12-hardly anyone even looked-in part due to the gas A4 which everyone is scared of, without basis.
I'm sure there are alot of boats in your price range that might serve you better. I don't know what you require, your method of search, your skills etc. but this boat that you're considering is one I'd keep away from unless the deal was good enough to justify the risks of unknowns.
If you don't know boats that well, a survey is pretty useful both as a buying tool and to guide a work plan. Your insurance company will want one too and depending on defects another one might be required before they will cover you-you could go just liability as well, but self-insuring in that value area requires being able to absorb loss not only of hull, but all that you load her with.
I just googled the boat model and came up with a boat for $22K in Portland-is that her, with sunburst on dropboard?
Good Luck and Fair Winds, Will
I've looked at a couple of Mark III's in the Great Lakes area a few years ago. A nice 1979 34 with new canvas and pretty well gone through sold in the mid $20's for a fresh water only boat. Most of the listings I've seen appear to be in around the $19-20K range. The Northwest seems to have a higher price point than the east coast or Gulf. Make sure the transmission and V-drive fluid is changed, since water has probably entered through the vent. The Paragon v-drives are not made anymore. The Cals are a nice solid boat.
Lots of good thoughts here and I would like to add a couple for you to ponder:
You ask about what features add to the value of a boat. I offer that none of the electronics adds value. Even if installed within the past couple of years, it is out of date. Safety items unless recently repacked and certified will also be out of date or are out of date already, so I would discount these completely as I would prefer my own (new) inflatable pfd and life-raft.
Your best negotiation tool will be your survey. Yes, it could cost 15 hundred and you should be able to easily save that in the next round of price talks. You will have the voice of an appraiser and s/he will state issues found and an estimated value for the boat. From the list, you can come up with repair prices you can argue should come off the price of the boat.
Feel free to walk from this boat however if you still have interest in it, go ahead and agree to the price contingent on the survey and then come back with your final offer. If you are rejected again, give the seller a couple of months this winter to pay slip rent and to think about what he can do with the money you have offered. Frequently a willing seller will come around.
You ask about what features add to the value of a boat. I offer that none of the electronics adds value. Even if installed within the past couple of years, it is out of date. Safety items unless recently repacked and certified will also be out of date or are out of date already, so I would discount these completely as I would prefer my own (new) inflatable pfd and life-raft.
Your best negotiation tool will be your survey. Yes, it could cost 15 hundred and you should be able to easily save that in the next round of price talks. You will have the voice of an appraiser and s/he will state issues found and an estimated value for the boat. From the list, you can come up with repair prices you can argue should come off the price of the boat.
Feel free to walk from this boat however if you still have interest in it, go ahead and agree to the price contingent on the survey and then come back with your final offer. If you are rejected again, give the seller a couple of months this winter to pay slip rent and to think about what he can do with the money you have offered. Frequently a willing seller will come around.
Ask him to replace the hose and tank or reduce his offer
they usually negotiate rather than do that job themselves. Yard rated reduction.
Good luck and +1 on the comment to reduce the offer after the survey.[$1000]
Otherwise, keep looking, like this one...
http://www.sailboatlistings.com/cgi...ault&uid=default&view_records=1&ID=30067&mh=1
The Seattle Boat Show may bring some new listing activity.
they usually negotiate rather than do that job themselves. Yard rated reduction.
Good luck and +1 on the comment to reduce the offer after the survey.[$1000]
Otherwise, keep looking, like this one...
http://www.sailboatlistings.com/cgi...ault&uid=default&view_records=1&ID=30067&mh=1
The Seattle Boat Show may bring some new listing activity.
I know from experience that the sanitation odor is not easy to get rid of. The smell permeates cushion fabric and the cushions themselves which may not be rid by simple cleaning. We replaced all at significant expense. Also, a simple cleaning of the toilet (which appeared to be very clean to begin with), didn't rid the smell until we replaced the toilet itself. When buying a boat with even seemingly simple problems, hidden expenses abound. The safest bet is probably to keep looking.
As posted above...."Rigging". Look at all the swages at the deck level or where they go into the turn buckles. Rain follows the shrouds down to the rigging stud and into the stud. Heat in the summer and freezing cold in the winter are very stressful on the swages if and moisture is trapped inside with the wire. I prefer to wipe all the swages down with "Never Dull" for a good visual inspection. Take the wadding and run it up and down all the shourds to "Feel" for little snags in the wire rope. Keep in mind it is suggested to rerig the standing rigging every ten years , I see boats sailing all the time with 20+ year old rigging , not that I would care to make a crossing on such a boat. If you find cracks in the rigging it should all be replaced....another Five Grand. Also check the compression post or the mast step if keel stepped. typically these areas may be suspect after water intrusion. Lotsa boats in the sea......Fools rush in......I think you are getting the picture. Good luck.
The value of a boat (or anything) is what a willing seller will accept, and willing buyer will pay at a specific point of time. I did this dance for over 3 years before I found my right first boat, an O'day 35.
You have made an offer on the boat, and the seller countered it. If the owner has lost interest in the boat, he will still have to pay yard fees, maintenance, and taxes, until the boat sells. It's not like 30+ year old boats are appreciating in value. To put the difference into perspective; $3k is approximately the cost of new standing rigging, or a well built bimini.
I suggest that you have the boat surveyed now, and if nothing serious is found in the survey, make him this offer; you will stand by your offer, assuming that the boat is properly maintained, for 5 months (until June). During this time, he must continue to pay any and all expenses related to the boat, including maintenance, PROPER winterizing, and any repairs cited in your survey (that raw water strainer is not going to fix itself).
If he sells it to someone else for a higher price, good luck to them. If not, you will re-survey the boat in June, and if nothing else has broken, you will buy the boat then at the price that you have agreed to pay now. Or, he can save himself the cost of maintaining the boat for the next 6 months, and sell you the boat now.
You have made an offer on the boat, and the seller countered it. If the owner has lost interest in the boat, he will still have to pay yard fees, maintenance, and taxes, until the boat sells. It's not like 30+ year old boats are appreciating in value. To put the difference into perspective; $3k is approximately the cost of new standing rigging, or a well built bimini.
I suggest that you have the boat surveyed now, and if nothing serious is found in the survey, make him this offer; you will stand by your offer, assuming that the boat is properly maintained, for 5 months (until June). During this time, he must continue to pay any and all expenses related to the boat, including maintenance, PROPER winterizing, and any repairs cited in your survey (that raw water strainer is not going to fix itself).
If he sells it to someone else for a higher price, good luck to them. If not, you will re-survey the boat in June, and if nothing else has broken, you will buy the boat then at the price that you have agreed to pay now. Or, he can save himself the cost of maintaining the boat for the next 6 months, and sell you the boat now.
I agree completely. Why pay all the money for the survey not knowing what the agreed pre-survey price is at least. That doesn't limit your options after the survey.
One might think the seller is going to come down after the survey but he might have no intention especially if the survey shows nothing new that hasn't already been discovered. Of course the chances are a survey will find something that wasn't revealed before the survey and coming together on an initial agreed price. Then you can negotiate further. Still a seller might not decide to lower the price regardless of what the survey reveals. Then you walk or buy,
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