C30, Mark II circa 1980 portals

[Anonymous 121765]

Hey Guys,

I don't usually start threads. Albeit, this is probably long in the tooth.

I mostly try to be helpful (Thru my OWN trial & error) to be of some assistance for those who pose the questions. However, I am seeking some feedback on this UNENDING PROBLEM I am experiencing & all replies are greatly appreciated.

I have a 1980 C30Mark II (built in California). I have been trying to stop leaks thru my portals for thirty+ years now .....And I am not a happy camper/sailor.

I have spent my professional life in the mech/electrical fields. From petro-chem to nuclear & civil disciplines. I have well varied field experience, hence my designs/upgrades take into account construction, maintenance & equip. & changeouts. This is how good design is achieved.

My portal problems are two/three pronged. Herein lies my questions:

My C30 has four portals per side, 4 STBD & four PORT.
Vertically, I have a TWO piece (lateral, 1 top, one bottom) external outer frame (w/glass & rubber seals). There is a one piece inner "collar" flat flange for tightening (internally) against the outer two-piece exterior flange. This was a design meant to fail from the beginning. Maybe it was a cost factor, but a poor way to proceed.

The other problem is I discovered how can one tighten a two-part flange outer shell portal (2 piece) frame when there is NO CORING between the inner cabin liner & exterior cabin (2-piece) flange. This surely was a quality control issue.

One could tighten until doomsday and the "squashing" between the outer shell & inner interior liner is a failure in terms. Thus designed to fail, due to non-coring fabrication practices @ the time (1980). How can one seal when one cannot SEAL if not having a fixed & constant solid surface? I don't know if other owners had this problem.

I realize 1980 (in boat years) is a century away from now-a-days boat building (and that's fine, it's onward & upward), however, this has been a never-ending battle in keeping outside water from invading my boat thru my portals (5 times over). I have reviewed the Catalina Direct replacement window system, but I do NOT trust Lexan (or equal) as a replacement. I view this as a band aid fix & not THE correct fix. Search Lexan & UV attacks..........

So, my question is thus, have other owners experienced these same problems & did they find a better ONE-TIME FIX? This is my FIFTH TIME in 30 years, at trying to make my portals waterproof, while keeping the original portal parts. Let's not forget the MISSING coring. QA didn't exist in 1980.

I know my fellow 1980 C30's feel the same, so chime in brothers.................

CR

 

[Lost Parent]

Hi Ron
In th RV field when we get leaking windows on a fiberglass body and find there is no backing between the outer and in skins we just cut and glue some lumber to fit int he gap ....does not have to be a perfect fit
As to the outside windows disassemble them and the reassemble them with black dow corning 795
Or replace with Cruising concept windows as I did
Good luck

 

[Lost Parent]

Ron
Is the 1980 model a mark II or mark I

 

[Kh3412]

Had the same issue with my ports. Found vinyl lumber at the big box store.
Cut to the frame size them cut in two pieces to fit in the void. West system
to hold, and file to fit. Won't rot and fills the void.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Captain Ron,

The aluminum frames were not such a great original design, but many skippers have replaced them. IIRC many posts on this, and some with pictures. One of them may have been on the Ericson owners website. I'll see if I can find it.

Regardless of whether or not you have an air space between your inner and outer fiberglass layers, the concept is to seal the glazing in the frame and then assure a good seal between the outside of the frame and the outside of the cabintop. You could have an air space, insulation, wood blocks or the tooth fairy in-between the two layers, but if you don't keep the water on the outside, even the tooth fairy will be unhappy!

Lemme go look around, I'll get back to you.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Try this:

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoex...cone-to-caulk-glass-gasket-joint-in-portlight

The links in the posts are helpful, too.

Happy New Year.

 

[The Garbone]

You have a lot more experience with these than I do but butyl tape is the answer for the frame to fiberglass joint.

Not all butyl tape is equal. Different makes have different levels of vulcanization/ tackiness. I myself am using and extremely sticky and elastic version of it. Very similar to tar in some ways. We use it to seal cable splice closures that are destine to be submerged for years at a time. It is labeled non reenterable.

In the second photo you can see it grabbing onto a frame I had yet to fasten down.

Hope this helps.

 

[chrisings]

I'll be watching this tread with great interest as the Mk1 (1983) we just purchased has leaking portals. I'm thinking it's a little too cold right now to be dealing with silicon and butyl but it's at the top of my early spring to do list.

 

[Old Skool Neil]

Hey Ron, long time man . . .

I replaced my two forward ports with Lewmar opening ports and refurbished the six fixed main cabin ports with the Catalina Direct kit. ZERO leaks. Makes me think your previous attempts missed a key aggravating element somewhere along the way.

I know you're anti-Lexan™ but the original tempered glass is an issue. The problem it brings to the party is it's rigid. This results in trying to seal a flat port assembly to a curved cabinside. The center is overly tight and the ends have gaps, can't be helped. Changing the panes to something that flexes allows the port assemblies to conform to the cabinside curvature and a subsequently better seal. That's only the seal between the frames and the deck, there are two more areas to be sealed: the pane to the vinyl seal and the vinyl seal to the aluminum frame. Having the panes rigid and the frames trying to curve affects the seals between the two as well.

Check out this thread: http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=1032500 for a detailed discussion of a successful refit. I feel pretty strongly as long as you stay with glass you're doomed to leaks sooner or later. I'm not saying Plexiglass™ or Lexan™ is the perfect answer, they certainly have their drawbacks but as opposed to what, leaking ports? Sometimes you have to choose the lesser of two evils.

By the way, it's not so much what sealant you use as it is how it's applied. Butyl tape is very popular on this forum, touted as the end-all and be-all for sealing but I submit a waterproof seal can be achieved with the proper application of virtually ANY sealant. We all have our preferences.

Best of luck, man . . . .

 

[Anonymous 121765]

Neil PM'd me and I replied to him.
I then thought why not post what I sent back to him albeit with some editing:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Neil,

I read you post & PM, and agree curvature & 2-piece portals suck.

I too changed my 2 small portals to opening ones. On the STBD side, it was a caulking nightmare. The rear of the frame had a 1/4"+ gap when set in-place. I used butyl rubber to take up the space, and they are sealed, however the flange sticking out from the cabin side looks sh**ty.

But, the other portals, I have 4 out of 6 leaking, some very small, others not so much. I've cleaned, re-bedded etc. but after a year they are leaking. I cannot believe this "designed-to-fail" product was approved by an engineer(?). Another problem is the painting I did on the portal frames. I really don't want to pry them off & screw up my paint job.

Looking at the rubber seal between the glass & exterior frame, the gasket looks crystalized. So, I will use a utility blade and cut this away. I will recess down the old rubber to leave a pocket for caulking. I hope this will do the trick. The frames caulked to the fiberglass seem to be fine. 3M makes a great construction that I used when re-bedding all the thru-deck fittings when painting.

However, going back to my orig. complaint, the very bad cut openings were a problem too. One portal opening had only 1/8" of contact on both vertical sides. Also I was very disappointed there was NO coring at any openings. I redid my mast step 2 years ago. When I pulled the fiberglass off, I was shocked at the POOR coring job here also. 1980 was not a time of quality control in boat making.

I had a great glass guy do the repair. Was able to re-install the deck piece and made sure the step would NEVER leak again. At the same time, I put in a new masthead crane with rope sheaves. I then put an aluminum plate over the open top of the crane to cut down on water running down on the inside.

I cut a 3 " vent down low (STBD side) to allow any water at the bottom to dry. I also made several half circle notches at the mast bottom to allow for drainage.

But these portals man, I HATE EM.

CR

 

[Old Skool Neil]

Looking at the rubber seal between the glass & exterior frame, the gasket looks crystallized. So, I will use a utility blade and cut this away. I will recess down the old rubber to leave a pocket for caulking. I hope this will do the trick.

This is a remedy endorsed by Catalina themselves.

However, going back to my orig. complaint, the very bad cut openings were a problem too. One portal opening had only 1/8" of contact on both vertical sides.

Yeah, there was an ape at the factory who cut those holes, absolutely horrible.

Also I was very disappointed there was NO coring at any openings.

As I said in my PM, stop the water on the outside and those voids aren't any big deal. The water getting in as far as the voids is the problem.

1980 was not a time of quality control in boat making.

True statement industry wide. QC only occurred with the finished product, not at intermediate stages. Add a feverish production schedule and you end up with voids and holes cut by brutes. Comparing production of 30 footers at different companies, Capital (Newport 30) produced one boat a week, Columbia (Columbia 30) and Jensen (Cal 29) produced two boats a week. Based on hull numbers spanning model years I figure Catalina was producing around two boats a day. Kinda hard to be careful and meticulous at that pace.

At Islander we tried ramping up the Islander 28 production from two boats a week to a boat a day. Quality dropped off immediately and quality is what we were selling at the time. The experiment only lasted a month.

But these portals man, I HATE EM.

Then you're a candidate for getting rid of them. There are other window companies out there. Start by contacting them with your problems and concerns. Hold on to your wallet. The Cruising Concepts oversize ports are made of the plastic you don't like so maybe they are not the way for you to go. Note however that the later versions of the Catalina 30 had plastic ports glued onto the cabinsides and we don't hear too much about them leaking.

 

[Anonymous 121765]

Neil,

You're OK in my book pal.

What do you think of my rubber gasket cutting idea?

CR

 

[Old Skool Neil]

What do you think of my rubber gasket cutting idea?

Much easier than going the full monty of disassembling and it can be done in place. It assumes the frame to cabinsides seal is intact and frankly with your report I wouldn't assume anything at this point. The P.O. of my boat did it and it was effective for a while. The first drip that I observed meant the ports were outta 'dere and on the bench for a full refit including powdercoating. But that's my way, my dementia.

As I said, Catalina recommended the seal trim and recaulk as a remedy so that alone gives it merit. Gerry Douglas is a pretty sharp cookie.

Y'know, whatever works. I'll repeat that this remedy addresses only the first of the three necessary seals to keep the water out though:

1. Glazing to vinyl seal
2. Vinyl seal to frame
3. Frame to cabinsides

There's no downside to trying.

 

[jimmcgee]

Ron, the ports on my MKIII don't leak (as long as I keep the seals lubed on the opening ports).

Those opening ports are Bomar's and the fixed ports are from Catalina - I'm assuming they're Lexan but I'm not sure.

Could you fit MKIII ports to your boat or is there a difference in the cabin sides?

Jim

 

[jrowan]

Ron, I feel your pain, because you know I also have a 1980 C-30.

Sounds like we have done the same mods, as I also have replaced the cheap, fixed forward ports for the Lewmar operating ports in the head & above the locker, which are a must for ventilation. I have also had drip leaks on the starboard side port, due to uneveness of the thickness of the cabin trunk sides.

I also agree with you that I would rather fix leaks on true tempered glass ports, then Lexan that ALWAYS cracks on every other boat that I've owned with Lexan (an '85 C-25 & an '83 O'Day 35). But the aluminum frames were absolutely a terrible design.

For some reason I only have a leak one of my ports the 3 starboard port at the front side of the cabin. I have rebedded & caulked this frame many times over the years. My conclusion about consistent leaks like these, is that there is flexing of the cabin trunk when sailing under heavy wind loads. The fiberglass flexes slightly, & the aluminum expands & contracts seasonally & through sunlight solar heat gain.



I also have to agree with Neil about the specific source of leaks as they may not be coming from the aluminum frames but from:

1. Glazing to vinyl seal
2. Vinyl seal to frame
3. Frame to cabinsides

There are so many dis-simmilar materials being used & depended on to bond well together: gelcoated fiberglass, vinyl & aluminum.

As far as the areas around the frames opening not being cored correctly, that actually might be a blessing is disguise. After 30 years, most other yachts of our era have serious wet rot delamiantion from the balsa core rotting around the frames due to many past leaks. I don't know of any ports that haven't begun to leak after over 30 years of sailing wear & tear. (I've seen some horror stories from the 80's era Hunters, which have tons of ports that leaked). The best design would be of course solid bronze round ports used in traditioanl boats, but these are expensive, heavy & kind of antiquated in appearance.

I would remove the leaking ports & inject West Systems Epoxy into the voids to seal the lower perimerter core of the cabin house. This would of course firm upthe opening as well. But Overtightening of the screws on the aluminum inner frame will still just deform the soft aluminum in repsonse to torque of the screws, & will no lesson the chance of leaks. So it may not be worth it remove the ports again & mess up your paint job.

I personally have been using marine grade 100% silicone cauling around the outer frame to fiberglass seams, then clear silicone in between the inner & outer glass to vinyl & aluminum frame seams. It will of course not last forever due to UV breakdown. Mine last about 3 years before it degrades. But it is a lot easier to remove & replace down the road then evil 5200 or epoxy.

ps. I was literally out reaulking my frames just before x-mas & so far so good.

Cheers & happy sailing in the New Year to all,

Jeremy Rowan