What about Baltic boats?

Oct 19, 2011
181
Hunter 42 Passage San Diego, CA
As you folks know I currently own a Hunter 42 Passage which we love for the layout and we are able to sail her quite competitively BUT I am concerned that despite Hunter's original design having the Passage being a blue water boat my reading tells me it may not be which certainly is a point of debate by many. In researching I have read about Baltic boats as being a "cruiser/racer" similar but with more creature comforts than a C&C. So let's reopen the debate. I have my Hunter Passage about the way I want her with upgraded electronics etc but is it advisable to change to a Baltic 43?

I know many plan to sail the blue water and few actually achieve that goal. But a blue water boat can be used for coastal cruising but can a coastal cruiser be used in the blue water? Ah the questions........

Thanks as usual. Sandy
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
The Baltic 43 is a beautiful boat and can take you anywhere. Designed by J/V and built in Finland to a very high standard. If it's in your budget then why not? Life is short.
 
Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
how would you describe a blue water boat as compared to a coastal cruiser?...
we know that a light daysailer or weekender is not normally considered a coastal cruiser, but a boat that is built for and is set up and maintained as a coastal cruiser would imply that you should be fine for running down the coast where you can get into port sometimes, or a trip to hawaii or alaska.... or across the canal to the Caribbean/Atlantic side... bahamas....
but probably not cape horn or the southern ocean...

there will be many different opinions im sure...

so, is it a different boat, or is it how you have your boat set up?...
is it a boat that can go a couple of months or more out beyond sight of land without needing to stop anywhere for provisions?...
are you needing a boat that you are going to sail far south into the southern ocean?...

in my opinion, providing the hull is strong enough (and im sure the H42P is), almost any boat can be set up as a bluewater boat... but the available space inside the boat will dictate the amount of provisions that can be carried for extended voyages without stopping for water and groceries....

and in the same way, a good solid blue water boat can become de-rated into a coastal cruiser thru neglect... it has to be set up right and maintained afterwards.
 
Oct 19, 2011
181
Hunter 42 Passage San Diego, CA
how would you describe a blue water boat as compared to a coastal cruiser?...
we know that a light daysailer or weekender is not normally considered a coastal cruiser, but a boat that is built for and is set up and maintained as a coastal cruiser would imply that you should be fine for running down the coast where you can get into port sometimes, or a trip to hawaii or alaska.... or across the canal to the Caribbean/Atlantic side... bahamas....
but probably not cape horn or the southern ocean...

there will be many different opinions im sure...

so, is it a different boat, or is it how you have your boat set up?...
is it a boat that can go a couple of months or more out beyond sight of land without needing to stop anywhere for provisions?...
are you needing a boat that you are going to sail far south into the southern ocean?...

in my opinion, providing the hull is strong enough (and im sure the H42P is), almost any boat can be set up as a bluewater boat... but the available space inside the boat will dictate the amount of provisions that can be carried for extended voyages without stopping for water and groceries....

and in the same way, a good solid blue water boat can become de-rated into a coastal cruiser thru neglect... it has to be set up right and maintained afterwards.

Good points and especially noted is the emphasis on maintenance. My H42P has the water capacity as well as a water maker, fuel capacity, electronics (except SSB radio) for blue water sailing but I have heard concerns about design such as side light size and port construction within those side lights that some say won't qualify for blue water. As well I have heard that standing rigging with deck stepped mast and single chain plates could be problematic BUT in my opinion a blow 5 miles off the coast like a Santa Anna blow is just like a blow a thousand miles off shore. This is a good debate.
 

Rick D

.
Jun 14, 2008
7,182
Hunter Legend 40.5 Shoreline Marina Long Beach CA
One Thing To Watch Closely

...is the teak decks and cockpit. That is assuming you are buying used. A well-known actor who had his next to mine for years spent over 20K to have just his cockpit done, and that was ten years ago when the boat was maybe 15 years old. And, it needed the deck done next. The boat itself looked pretty bullet proof although the hull shape was sort of IOR-ish although modestly. Some of the rigging and interior bits and were hard to obtain in the states. He single handed sometimes but it looked far better laid out for a crew in winch and running rigging layout. She carried a high aspect main with big headsails.

So, those are a few of the things to look at and consider as you check out these beautiful boats.
 
Jun 9, 2008
1,792
- -- -Bayfield
CE Category

Indicates the conditions the boat has been designed for and how many passengers it can take.
There are four main categories
A Ocean
B Off Shore
C Inshore
D Sheltered Waters
The number indicates the number of passengers the boat was designed for. eg A/6 is an Ocean going vessel that can accommodate 6 passengers.
This all has to do with how well the boat was built to withstand the A-D categories. Believe me, there are a number of ways to build a boat and there are certain criteria for each. Hull to deck joints for example are many.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
BUT in my opinion a blow 5 miles off the coast like a Santa Anna blow is just like a blow a thousand miles off shore.
Except help is 995 miles closer.

Some one else said 'any boat can be made into a blue water boat'. That's pure rubbish. Our First 36.7 is 'A" rated, and she would NOT be my first choice to cross the Atlantic.
 

KD3PC

.
Sep 25, 2008
1,069
boatless rainbow Callao, VA
Baltic and Hunter completely different boats....while I loved my 42, could I afford moving up to the Baltic, would be a no brainer.

I would even drop back to a Baltic 38, 8-10 years older than my 1991 and likely be happy!!
 
Apr 8, 2010
2,088
Ericson Yachts Olson 34 28400 Portland OR
Baltic and Hunter completely different boats....while I loved my 42, could I afford moving up to the Baltic, would be a no brainer.

I would even drop back to a Baltic 38, 8-10 years older than my 1991 and likely be happy!!
Agree!
And, FWIW, Baltics and Swans are often considered together. They have the design, construction, and durability for sustained time off shore.
Different market than the one addressed (very successfully I should add) by Hunter.
Way different market.

Neither is inferior for the purpose intended, but the 'design brief' was/is markedly different.
Another boat in that general "off shore" grouping would be the CT-38, and of course the Valiant 40.

Happy shopping,
Loren
 
Mar 6, 2012
357
Hunter H33 (limited edition cabin top) Bayou Chico
stirring the pot here but what is this drivel about certain boats not being blue water capable, tell that to dove...setup and PLANNING are key, i just completed a costal delivery in a 37.5 hunter where the owner insisted on slowing the boat down to keep on schedule. it resulted in a very unpleasant ride for the conditions, had they been worse the ride would have been dangerous. the rating system has definitely resulted in some "a" boats that are definitely not "a" boats. as a caveat to that tho an "a" boat can definitely be an "a" boat if its rigged out then treated properly in addition to planning a trip around the boats characteristics, specifically im going to pick on fast olson for the "They have the design, construction, and durability for sustained time off shore." comment, no matter what you shop for theres nothing that will fit this bill in its truest sense, whats the point, if you are going to spend "sustained time offshore" then get you an open 60 and circumnavigate, if you are going somewhere stop screwing around out there and find safe harbor, if you plan properly and choose a well constructed boat and operate it properly then you will be a blue water sailor, if you however get an oyster 60 and get lost in the southern ocean and dont realize that you are sailing into a squall with growlers all around you in 30 foot waves off cape horn then you have defeated the purpose of your "blue water" boat and the guy hopping islands in the bahamas and wintering in mexico or the gulf coast on his 28 oday is more of a blue water sailor than you. after a certain point its about the sailor/owner/operator/capitain role that we have to fill and not the boat that is the problem. get a flika go to key west and cross the atlantic to gibralter then reconsider the swan and tell us what you have discovered about what you want and what you need.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Rufus,

Any safe voyage requires some part of four ingredients:

1) Planning (what you think of beforehand, and prep)
2) Skill (sailing ability, how YOU react in real time)
3) Boat (scantling strength, watertight rudderbox, overbuilt rigging, etc)
3) LUCK

The more you have of the first 3, the less you need of the last. The one part that is not skipper related is the basic BOAT, and the more built-in blue-water capabilities it has, the better off you will be. There is no escaping that. I'm not talking about the things you can add, like more water tanks. I'm talking design and construction. Sure you can circumnavigate the world in a coastal boat. But frankly it would take quite a bit of LUCK to make it. How many times would someone have to try before it ended badly? A LOT more that it would statistically in a Baltic. There is a reason for that.
 
Mar 6, 2012
357
Hunter H33 (limited edition cabin top) Bayou Chico
statistically yes, this is shown in ocean racers, they build the boats and spend lots of time in the blue water, my point is that statistically the people that want to cross blue water will do one of two things.
1) buy a boat and do it (prep, lifestyle changes, planning, gathering knowledge.)
2) pine away about number 3 on your list until they decide they're too old and frail to do it then get mad and start screaming about how stupid everyone else is for not having the maltese falcon built to cross the gulf stream. (im exaggerating to make a point)
 
Aug 3, 2010
150
Hunter 326 Charleston SC
You should have confidence in the boat you want to take offshore, whether it’s a Hunter or Baltic, Swan, or Catalina. It’s more the captain more than the boat, in most instances that make the difference how you fair offshore.
Read the blog of Sequitur
http://www.sailblogs.com/member/sequitur/ he took that Hunter into some terrible weather down by the Falkland’s without a problem. He sailed from Vancover to Florida around the Cape.
 
Feb 10, 2007
213
Hunter Legend 40.5 Coconut Grove, FL
a young french couple sailed their 33 ft around the world for 2 years and stopped at Annapolis last June. I asked them what was the worst time during their circumnavigation, and they both agreed that the storm they went through sailing down the Potomac river going from Washington DC. to Annapolis was the only time they could not control the boat.. because of the wind gusts.... They even mentioned how nice the Indian Ocean crossing was compared to that....
They mentioned that lots of twenty some footers sailboats were ocean sailing everywhere....

Agree with the previous comments.. blue water boats are all the ones their owners take sailing accross the ocean....
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
There are some tried and true definitions used by boat designers and marine insurance underwriters that generally categorizes boats as to their usage - namely 'scantlings rules' or what broke or fell apart and then sunk under what conditions and most importantly what was the underlying 'strength' of the boats that survived in such conditions vs. those that didnt. Scantling rules have been effect since Mr. Lloyd (London) was a pup, such is the foundations and constant evolution of marine design and the marine insurance industry. The historical record of scantling rules is long and detailed; many of the 'smiley faces' you see on nautical charts locates a fix on those that ... 'didnt stand up' to the scantling rules.

Offshore boats.
The nominal definition of an 'offshore or open ocean boat' is one that is built to 3 to 4 times the strength needed to 'survive' the strongest storm normally encountered. The historical scantlings of such boats has proven itself over hundreds of years of accumulated data says that an open ocean boat should be to this level if it has a good chance to survive the 'usual' unexpected. This discounts entirely the skill of the captain or crew, the fancy gizmos, the 'modern construction', etc. as all of these aspects are subject to capricious actions of crew, materials, craftsmanship, etc.
Being 3 - 4 times stronger than needed also insures that the rigging and other metallic components -usually stainless steel- does not become 'embrittled' and fatigued leading to sudden catastrophic failure - ie. without warning. Stainless steel, the metallic material of much of the modern boat construction, as rigging, etc., easily 'fatigues' due to the constant load cycling encountered in the open ocean. Typically 300 series stainless will be VERY prone to failure if the material is repetitively stressed beyond 30% of its ultimate (breaking) tensile strength - usually 1 million load cycles at above 30% usually results in FAILURE; keep that maximum stress below that 30% value and you 'may' have a rig that lasts 'forever'. Fiberglass acts in the same way; the US Navy has 100s of documents highlighting the stress values and the fatigue characteristics of fiberglass.
The caution here is: dont think NEW will keep you secure. What will keep you secure on the open ocean where the impact stresses are constant and additive is: Scantlings History of the design - your designer built it that way on purpose, and your insurance underwriter insisted on it or they wouldnt insure you.

Coastal designs.
Coastal designs are built to a scantling rule of approx. 2 times the maximum strength needed. 2 is less than 3. Above 3 three, youre statistically safe from the boat falling apart due to constant repetitive / cyclical stress. Less than 3 your chances of 'not making it' are higher.
Repeat - most 'costal designs' (aka - most 'production' boats) are built to a scantling rule that is not up to par for the long term stresses encountered on the open ocean for long periods of time. Not that you cant sail around the world in a 'coastal' design, not that you cant do long distance sailing or island hopping; but, statistically speaking and from historical scantlings perspective, youre going to have a much higher chance of NOT 'making it' than if you were in a boat built to offshore scantlings ... at an overall inbuilt factor of safety of 3 or 4. Coastal designs are usually at near a design safety factor of only 2.

Inshore design.
Factor of Safety is ~ 1.5. 1.5 is 'half' of 3. 'Nuff said.

"Modern Design" and "new"
Just take a good look at the boats that are in 'charter service' after only 1 year. Just because a boat is 'new' does not mean strong or 'proven', ... remembering the keels that were falling off of expensive Bavarias and the many spade rudders falling of the Jeanneaus and other french boats, etc.
'Proven' is a word that means the 'scantling history' as accumulated over time is OK or that most successfully completed long distance passages were without incident or failure of materials, design, etc. Fatigue and its subsequent catastrophic failure of materials is what mostly sinks and breaks apart boats, especially in boats that werent designed for the service intended.

'Proven' is far vastly better than 'new', or 'modern'. "Proven" means well defined and successfully scantling history. When in doubt about a boat, any serious boat, ...... contract with a reknown marine designer/architect.

;-)
 
Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
Some one else said 'any boat can be made into a blue water boat'. That's pure rubbish. Our First 36.7 is 'A" rated, and she would NOT be my first choice to cross the Atlantic.
I said that.
I think its a rather strong refute.
I didnt say any boat you could buy could be a blue water cruiser...
but exactly what I did say was "providing the hull is strong enough (and im sure the H42P is), almost any boat can be set up as a bluewater boat"...

this doesnt mean that the H42P is a blue water cruiser in its original, stock form, nor does it mean that a common man without knowledge and tools could do it by himself, nor does it mean that you can change a couple pieces of hardware and say its blue water qualified.
but it can be done, and has been done on other lesser rated boats.... many times, successfully. and it doesnt hurt the value of the boat. (some boats have been hand built without any official rating, but that does not mean that are not seaworthy blue water boats... AND, just because it has a high rating from the assembly line, does not mean its blue water ready...

I do agree some boats are designed and built to stronger standards to begin with, but its also true that a weaker boat can be strengthened after it leaves the factory or shipyard...

I also said previously... "and in the same way, a good solid blue water boat can become de-rated into a coastal cruiser thru neglect... it has to be set up right and maintained afterwards". No matter what rating it has from the factory....

and as for personal preferences and choices, they are not absolute rules, but only preferences and choices...

and out there, along the coast or out in the wild blue, I would rather ship under a captain with lots of experience on a decent "coastal cruiser", before I would choose to sail under an inexperienced man on a "blue water" rated boat......
 
Mar 6, 2012
357
Hunter H33 (limited edition cabin top) Bayou Chico
for a good quick look at 'scantling history' why not check out what is actually 'out there' that is older than say 20 years and actively cruising during that lifespan. i can tell you ive heard it from many mouths that the large portion of them are oday (28 usually) hunter (cherubini 27 30 and 33 usually) pearson (30 10meter and a smattering of others) grampian (30 ish models) moody (32 to 42 models) and a few others, the large majority tho are listed. this is from people ive met that probably have millions of cumulative miles all over the planet but mainly equatorial locations. many tho had to have traversed some snotty stuff. so i go back to my original quote, 2 kinds of people when it comes to cruising blue water, those that get one that is a good platform and make it ready, and those who pine about yachts with insane price tags that wont be able to do the job off the showroom floor no matter how you cut it, ive never seen a yacht that had it all that wasnt a racer, there is always something that needs to be done, why not start with a worthy foundation of a boat (i picked a 33 hunter 1978) and make it what you need to get the job done.

for the record i agree with the two previous posts, the point is that baltic boats are nice, sure, but you shouldnt start with the attitude of "if only i had that baltic... then i could do blue water", that leads to the path where you find yourself old and decrepit, owning your baltic and saying, "gee, i got this baltic but its just not quite right.....if i had a swan then....mabey then...i would be safe to cross that big blue pond." if you want a baltic cuz it appeals to you thats admirable, they're beautiful boats, but dont fool yourself or anyone else that there is a mark somewhere "up there" that means you have finally arrived at a blue water boat. find your boat, the one that speaks to you and is a part of who you are as much as you are a part of it, and make it your blue water boat.
 
Aug 16, 2009
1,000
Hunter 1986 H31 California Yacht Marina, Chula Vista, CA
As I write this, I am clearly out of my depth, so I will just pose some questions.
1. From my reading, it appears that relatively few blue water sailors or boats are actually lost at sea due to catastrophic failure of the boat. That is very distinct from the much greater number that may have to limp to a foreign shore where very expensive parts are ordered and laid in while the crew waits for them. My guess is that engine issues and standing rigging constitute the most frequent offshore issues, and hull failure or delaminations very rare?

2. If the above is true, it seems like it would be possible to make a coastal cruiser into a blue water boat at considerable expense doing many of the things suggested by Berman in his Outfitting the Offshore Cruising Sailboat. I guess this raises the question whether it is better [cost effective and/or quality] to buy a boat that came from the factory with most of these improvements, or to have them added to ones own specifications.

3. Some part of this debate focused on Jackdaw's observation that the better the boat and skipper, the less one has to rely on luck. As a novice, I look at luck as how forgiving my boat will be when my inexperience and stupidity puts me in a tight situation. Anyone who spends a great deal of time offshore is destined to make some mistakes, or fall victim to the mistakes of others. I suspect that's where the build of most boats will have their chance to minimize the impact of the error of our ways.