Hard or ablative?

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Db421

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Jun 7, 2004
95
Hunter 34 1986 Lake Lanier, GA
Finished my extensive blister repair on my '83 Hunter 25, put two coats of Interlux Interprotect 2000 barrier coat (1 more to go) and I'm looking for a good bottom paint to finish it off. We usually keep the boat in the water year round (Lake Lanier, GA) which is a relatively warm , fresh water situation. I don't like the idea of ablatives because it seems like a better idea to just scrub the bottom of any growth that develops. Does anyone have any advice on a good, hard bottom paint that will last a few years?
 
Jan 27, 2008
3,086
ODay 35 Beaufort, NC
Most folks seem to like Petit Trinidad SR. I used Micron Ultra for my last paint job and it held up very well for three years in the most unfriendly barnacle and oyster producing environment you can possibly imagine.
 

DougM

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Jul 24, 2005
2,242
Beneteau 323 Manistee, MI
Whatever you use for bottom paint, you normally have a very limited time window between the last barrier coat and the first coat of bottom paint. Check out the application instructions for the Interprotect. The reason is that the bottom paint needs to form a bond with the barrier coat.

As for which bottom paint, some are only effective if launched immediately after application, others are designed for trailer sailers, and some work better than others in fresh water. That said, my preference has been VC17 in fresh water up here in the northern great lakes. I have no experience in an area like Lake Lanier which is much warmer water. Ask around to get an idea of local preferences, but exclude those whose sole criterion is cost per quart.
 

CCHer

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Jul 7, 2010
230
Beneteau 37 Cranes Creek, VA
Doug is 100% right. A hard antifouling should be applied while the barrier coat is still tacky.
 

Sumner

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Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
Doug is 100% right. A hard antifouling should be applied while the barrier coat is still tacky.
Yep I agree with both of you, but he said he had one coat to go so he has a couple options possibly. One is that you have a wider window between barrier coats with some products. Not sure about the Interlux but with the Tuff Stuff from Sea Hawk that we used this was true. If so in the next day or so he might be able to apply the last coat of barrier coat and then the antifouling within the correct time period.

The other option that usually works is when ready for the antifouling scuff the barrier paint and apply one more coat and then the antifouling. That gives a physical bond between the last coats of the epoxy and the chemical bond between it and the antifouling.

With the Sea Hawk products they recommend that if you have to go overnight between coats to do it between the barrier coats and not between the barrier paint and antifouling. I would really recommend to the OP that he makes sure he gets this right or he is taking a chance that the bond between the barrier paint and antifouling could fail. Scuffing the barrier coat and adding an other at this point is a lot of work that could of been avoided but I'd bite the bullet and to it if I was in this situation.

Sea Hawk's Tuff Stuff goes on with a thicker build per coat than Interlux and only needs 2-3 coats. It sounds like he is only planning 3 coats of the Interlux and I thought more coats than that were recommended by the manufacturer,

Sum
 

Eric M

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Sep 30, 2008
159
Island Packet 35 Jacksonville
+1 for Trinidad SR. We are getting 3-4 years out of 2 coats on our IP35 in North FL. You need a power drill with a drywall mud mixing bit to mix this paint. You will also want to buy a small jar of the recommended thinner, otherwise the paint is simply too thick to work with.
 

Sumner

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Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
One item I think that is important to mention is if you are having the bottom cleaned and how often.

When I first started reading about bottom paints I'd read where someone said the paint lasted 2-4 years and thought 'wow, just put it on and 2-4 years later replace it'. Then I found out later they had the bottom cleaned every month by a diver.

Sum

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Jun 8, 2004
2,933
Catalina 320 Dana Point
We get 3-4 years from Trinidad in So. Calif. saltwater, 2 coats with a third at waterline and leading edges, cleaned monthly by diver using carpet or towels. Fresh water, not a clue.
 
Jun 9, 2008
1,792
- -- -Bayfield
OK, here's Antifouling paint 101. Hard bottom paints are considered to be single season paints and, if they are cuprous oxide based biocides, they will have a chemical change that takes place when the boat is removed from the water and the hull dries. Therefore, they are not recommended for trailerable sail boats that go in and come out several times over the season. Single season, hard bottom paints work because the biocide leaches away from the paint keeping the hull clean. It leaves the paint behind. So, if you look at an older application and see paint, you cannot necessarily assume that there is any toxicants left. If you pull the boat after a reasonably fresh application, so that you know that there are toxicants present, you cannot just relaunch the boat after the hull dried, because of that chemical change that I wrote about. If the application is recent, then you can burnish the hull to open up the pores (so to speak -which more work people don't want to do). Since the biocide leaches away from the paint, eventually you will get a build up of paint, which will get thick and at some point you will want to take this all off and start over.
Now, ablative paints are different in nature. First of all, you can pull the boat and let the hull dry and it will have no adverse affect on antifouling performance. So, it is considered great paint for trailer sailors for this reason. But, it is great for boats that remain in the water as well. Secondly, both the paint and the toxicant leech away at the same time so that you do not eventually get a build up of paint like you do with a hard bottom paint which has to someday be removed (saves work).
Ablative paints are considered to be multi season paints and not single season paints. The recommended application for single season paints is two coats. 3 coats are recommended for ablative paints. As mentioned, if you see a single season paint application where paint is visible on a hard finish, you cannot assume there is any toxicant left. But, with an ablative paint, if you see paint, you can assume you still have antifouling protection because the paint and the toxicant leech at the same rate.
Think of an ablative paint as a time capsule cold pill. The medicine in a cold pill has different capsules that kick off at different rates so that you have cold remedies over a longer period of time. Well, with ablative paints, since the paint and the toxicants leech at the same rate, all the time you have paint wearing away you have more biocide exposing itself keeping your hull clean. What this means is you don't have to have as high as a percentage of toxicants to do the job. Trinidad was always lauded because it had the highest concentration of biocide, but it still was a hard paint and didn't have the same attributes as the multi season ablative types. Micron technology from Interlux, for example, is all about this time capsule approach and it works very well. When you see that the Micron type paint is wearing thin, then you know it is time to apply more paint. Micron technology is recent technology. Hard bottom paints are old technology and you will see them disappear in time. Also, Trinidad like paints are for salt water and not freshwater use because you don't need to have that sort of high percentage of toxicants for fresh water use. Interlux' product similar to Trinidad is Ultra.
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,244
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
I'd like to re-paint my bottom because it has a rough surface now that most of the loose stuff flaked off several years ago. What is left is still a hard, red surface. But the marina won't let me remove it by any method in their yard, and even if I could remove the paint, they wouldn't let me paint anything new on it anyway. Neither will they do it. In fact, there are many boats on our lake with a painted bottom (most without) but I don't know of a single marina that will do this work (paint removal or applying bottom paint) or allow it to be done on their premises.

But I can't figure out why it's needed in fresh water. I normally scrub the bottom with a brush 3 or 4 times a season, starting in July when the water temp gets up to about 80 and the last time about mid-September when the temp is down to about 70. After that, the boat can be in until late November and there won't be a speck of algae slime when she comes out. I only scrub it when I start to feel a slimy slick, even before it starts to get black.

It is true that with bare gelcoat, the boats will get a thicker build-up and most powerboaters don't even bother to clean their hulls until the end of the season when the yards make everything clean with slimy grimy.
 

Sumner

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Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country

Sumner

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Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
...Ablative paints are considered to be multi season paints and not single season paints. The recommended application for single season paints is two coats. 3 coats are recommended for ablative paints....
Good post!!

One option with ablatives that we have used on both boats is put the paint on in different colors. We have used black ablative for the first coat and blue for the 2nd/3rd coats. When we see black it is time to add more blue,

Sum

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Dec 1, 1999
2,391
Hunter 28.5 Chesapeake Bay
Petit Trinidad is a really good, hard, modified epoxy bottom paint. I used to use it. But have you ever tried to remove it? Quite a chore. After nearly killing myself doing that, I switched to Petit Ablative Hydrocoat. Easy to use, no paint build up, and it is quite hard for an ablative.
 

Sumner

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Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
.... I switched to Petit Ablative Hydrocoat. Easy to use, no paint build up, and it is quite hard for an ablative.
One downside to ablative that you often hear from trailer sailors who come in contact with the bottom of their boat on the trailer is that their ablative comes off so easily on them or their cloths.

As mentioned above some ablatives are harder than others if this is a concern/problem for you. We have used Sea Hawk's Cukote Biocide Plus which seems hard to me and doesn't come off real easily ....

http://www.bottompaintstore.com/cukote-biocide-plus-selfpolishing-bottom-paint-p-9475.html

..... on the Mac and in one month in the Fall in SW Florida we had no growth. The spring was a different story there and down in the Keys. In 2 months on the water at the very end at the time of take out we had maybe 100 very small barnacles about 1/8th inch or less that came off in a few minutes with a piece of plastic scrapper on the trailer. During the same time period we had to...





... scrape hundreds of barnacles off the bottom of the dinghy 3 different times. The dinghy was in the water the whole time. Seeing that the bottom of the Mac didn't end up looking like the dinghy I was happy with the product and we have put it on the Endeavour also with the hopes that we can be out 2-3 months without cleaning the bottom and that it will be fast to do back in the yard on stands.

We also went with it since the boat sitting on stands most of the year is the same conditions that a trailered boat endures and you need a paint that can go in and out of the water and remain effective.

I did document painting the Mac...

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor2/outside-39.html

... but don't have the Endeavour paint job on the site yet,

Sum

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Mar 26, 2011
3,684
Corsair F-24 MK I Deale, MD
Next time you see a guy scraping paint off the bottom for days, ask if it was either a single-season paint or a hard paint. That is the downside of hard paints.

With a good 2 year ablative you may never face that prospect, not if the paint is used to completion each time.
 

Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
8,175
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
I will disagree with Bill on a small point....
Hard bottom paints are considered to be single season paints
This is not true in areas where the boat is left in the water year round..... like So Cal..... However, if the boat is hauled out for the winter.... then the modified epoxy's biocides will quickly be leeched out by the elements.... thus the one season scenario.

In my area, if you dry store your boat, or trailer it... then the ablative style paint is preferred because the biocides don't leech out when exposed to air and the opportunity to add a few extra coats before launching is much more convenient.

For those of us who keep our boats in the water year round, it is more efficient and cost effective to apply a good hard shell paint and have it serviced regularly by a reliable diver, than to pay the expense of a yearly haul out.

I will add that if you have a conscientious diver they will never SCRUB the bottom with an abrasive pad.... a piece of carpet is the normal tool. Regular maintenance will add a minimum of two years to the period between haul outs which also slows down paint build up.
 
Feb 26, 2011
1,440
Achilles SD-130 Alameda, CA
When I first started reading about bottom paints I'd read where someone said the paint lasted 2-4 years and thought 'wow, just put it on and 2-4 years later replace it'. Then I found out later they had the bottom cleaned every month by a diver.
They didn't have to repaint because they had the bottom cleaned by a diver. They had to repaint because the paint had leached out all of its biocide. Anti fouling paint has a finite lifespan. It doesn't last forever, it lasts a few years. Then it's done.
 

Sumner

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Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
They didn't have to repaint because they had the bottom cleaned by a diver. They had to repaint because the paint had leached out all of its biocide. Anti fouling paint has a finite lifespan. It doesn't last forever, it lasts a few years. Then it's done.
I guess maybe I worded that badly. I wasn't trying to imply that they finally had to repaint because of having it cleaned, but that you can't put the paint on and expect it to keep the bottom clean for 2-4 years without cleaning during that time and eventually as you said it will have to be repainted to replenish the biocides or the paint and biocides in the case of ablative,

Sum

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Feb 26, 2011
1,440
Achilles SD-130 Alameda, CA
I guess maybe I worded that badly. I wasn't trying to imply that they finally had to repaint because of having it cleaned, but that you can't put the paint on and expect it to keep the bottom clean for 2-4 years without cleaning during that time and eventually as you said it will have to be repainted to replenish the biocides or the paint and biocides in the case of ablative,
Two universal truths about copper-based anti fouling paints:

1.- In regions of moderate or high fouling, these paints will only retard growth, not eliminate it.

2.- These paints release their copper to the environment, 24/7/365, moving or stationary, until it is gone. This is true for both hard and ablative paints.
 
Nov 9, 2008
1,338
Pearson-O'Day 290 Portland Maine
We used Hydrocoat on ours. Its hard enough for trailering and doesn' t rub off on your hands as some might think. Easy on, easy cleanup. I think it's a multi-year formula too. It's worth considering. But we don't leave our in.
 
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