New Sails for a Beneteau 311

[CapitalistSailor]

As the proud, new owner of a Beneteau Oceanis 311, I am thinking about possible sail upgrades to improve both racing and cruising performance. This year 2000 boat has the original Dacron Neil Pryde sails, which look surprisingly good, considering their age and use. Possible choices are a new main, new jib, asymmetrical spinnaker, symmetrical spinnaker, and some kind of larger jib. A larger jib would have to be sheeted well outboard of the existing track. What does the forum suggest for a sail upgrade plan over 3-4 years?

The delivery trip in early June was a 450 nm delivery trip from Lake Michigan to Lake Erie and it was wonderful, although cold (41 degree water until I got to the south end of Lake Huron).

The standard jib is a 116% non-overlapping Dacron jib and is sheeted inboard of the spreader tips, so there is no room for a larger jib without going outside the spreaders and probably sheeting to the toe rail. The standard main is also Dacron, equipped with a stackpack and lazy jacks. The existing jib and main are of about equal size on this 9/10 fractional rig. I plan to use this boat mostly for daysailing and cruising, but would like to do some club races also. These races would be mostly windward-leeward courses under jib and main (JAM), but there are a good number of distance races available on Lake Erie that I might try. I sail the boat mostly double and single-handed.

 

[Captn TJ]

As the proud, new owner of a Beneteau Oceanis 311, I am thinking about possible sail upgrades to improve both racing and cruising performance. This year 2000 boat has the original Dacron Neil Pryde sails, which look surprisingly good, considering their age and use. Possible choices are a new main, new jib, asymmetrical spinnaker, symmetrical spinnaker, and some kind of larger jib. A larger jib would have to be sheeted well outboard of the existing track. What does the forum suggest for a sail upgrade plan over 3-4 years?

The delivery trip in early June was a 450 nm delivery trip from Lake Michigan to Lake Erie and it was wonderful, although cold (41 degree water until I got to the south end of Lake Huron).

The standard jib is a 116% non-overlapping Dacron jib and is sheeted inboard of the spreader tips, so there is no room for a larger jib without going outside the spreaders and probably sheeting to the toe rail. The standard main is also Dacron, equipped with a stackpack and lazy jacks. The existing jib and main are of about equal size on this 9/10 fractional rig. I plan to use this boat mostly for daysailing and cruising, but would like to do some club races also. These races would be mostly windward-leeward courses under jib and main (JAM), but there are a good number of distance races available on Lake Erie that I might try. I sail the boat mostly double and single-handed.

A good loft can tell you if the sails are blown out and need replacing. Gary at North Sails in Vermillion has a good eye and is conservative on replacing. My NP genny was replaced about four years ago - more to do with the uv cover then sail shape. I didn't want to invest $$ on an oe sail so I bit the bullet. My oe main is still good after 7 years but will probably look at replacing next year with one that has a larger roach. Fyi I have a classic main.

If you're only going to race JAM you won't need a gennaker/spinnaker. Also your boat should do well on Lake Erie's light winds.

 

[CapitalistSailor]

Captn TJ, your are correct in what you have said. The original sails are pretty blown out, and I will check with a sailmaker about which to replace first. I was thinking beyond that, to what would be the next thing to acquire after a good main and jib. I am thinking I may buy one or two new sails this winter, and perhaps one per year after that.

For racing, I may enter eventually sail PHRF in club races, and I am thinking ahead to the Bayview Mac or the Doublehanded Challenge on Lake Huron in a few years, so a spinnaker would have some value, though perhaps not right away. I am also thinking of lighter air days just sailing around on Lake Erie.

I should have been more complete in my original question, but it was getting kind of long so I stopped.

 

[Jackdaw]

some thoughts.

First, how long do you expect your sails to last? If 5-6 Great Lakes seasons, I would think about UK silver tape-drive sails. They are very long-lasting laminates, not much more cost than good Dacron, and will totally out perform white sails.
http://www.uksailmakers.com/Sails/G.../Fiberglass-tapes/Tape-Drive-Genoa_2_221.html

Our smaller first 260 also has a 9/10 fractional rig. In lighter air it can use all the horse power it can get. For distance racing and cruising, I would look into a code-0 type sail, to be used off the wind in lighter airs. Most lofts can make, them, but here is a good write up

http://www.doylesails.com/cruising/downwind/ups/index.html

Also, go for maximum area. Have your main cut with max-PHRF roach, and your jib with a straight roach and vertical battens to support it.

You are right, due to rigging, flying a larger genoa is very problematic and probably not worth the issues it will cause.

At some point you will need to think about pure downwind sails. Faster by far on your boat will be traditional kites on a pole.

If you do go asyms (our boats are rigged for both), I suggest a small sprit to get the tack line clear of the bow. The extra projection and size will help as well, and allow inside jibes.

Oh,

if they are BOTH blown out, replace them at the same time. You will get much more performance benefit from that, and normally sail-makers will give you a volume discount.


Enjoy!

 

[watercayman]

Congratulations on your new boat - I hope it gives you years of pleasure. The 311 is a fantastic boat, and I can only say good things about it.

I still have my original (2005) sails on my boat, so I can't comment toward what to look for in new ones.

I just wanted to say that the 116% jib is really well suited to the boat. I find the need to reduce sail about 9 to 1 vs ever wanting more. If the wind is over 6kts, the boat just goes and goes well. When I first bought the boat I was wondering if I'd want a larger sail (though not really possible). I have really not felt it necessary.

Best,
Mike

 

[cymeyer]

CapitalistSailor,

We also have the original sails on our 2000 MY B321. Have replaced the UV covers once but otherwise no issues.
We did buy a Gennaker (assymentrial spinnaker) from UK Sailmakers and have been very happy with it.
Chris

 

[CapitalistSailor]

These are great suggestions. I am familiar with UK's tape drive sails, as some of my racing buddies have them. I wonder if I will need a larger stack pack mainsail cover for such a sail, as they are stiffer to fold?

Can I get an effective sun cover for a tape drive jib?

Which would I use more often for just sailing around in light air, a code zero or an asymmetrical spinnaker?

I borrowed a whisker pole from a friend. I plan to try wing and wing with a poled out jib in 5-10 knots true to see what I can get without a spinnaker.

 

[CapitalistSailor]

For downwind, I wonder if straight downwind wing and wing or gybing back and forth at maybe 155 deg true (revised) is faster (with the wind off the side enough to fill the jib)? It's hard to test it well unless the wind is steady, which it usually is not around here in light air.

 

[Captn TJ]

For downwind, I wonder if straight downwind wing and wing or gybing back and forth at maybe 155-165 deg apparent is faster (with the wind off the side enough to fill the jib)? It's hard to test it well unless the wind is steady, which it usually is not around here in light air.

I've sailed almost 30 years on Lake Erie so I understand your dilemma. The polars for my B423 show that it is faster on a broad reach then dead down wind. Our race experience confirms that as well - but it might be a characteristic of my boat. Not sure if you can put your hands on polars or a VPP - but it would help in your decision.

The biggest problem with wing/wing is steering and preventing the accidental jibe so if you do decide that is your preferred point of sail - you should rig a preventer.

 

[Jackdaw]

These are great suggestions. I am familiar with UK's tape drive sails, as some of my racing buddies have them. I wonder if I will need a larger stack pack mainsail cover for such a sail, as they are stiffer to fold?

You might. You will find the laminated sails to be MUCH smaller and lighter. Dacron is very heavy and thick vs laminates. But a bigger cover is nice to keep sharp folds away.

Can I get an effective sun cover for a tape drive jib?

Yes. A white UV resistant dacron strip (NOT sunbrella) will do it. Your sailmaker will know of it.

Which would I use more often for just sailing around in light air, a code zero or an asymmetrical spinnaker?

An asym would be your first choice without a doubt. In light air you can sail it quite high if you have an adjustable tack line.

I borrowed a whisker pole from a friend. I plan to try wing and wing with a poled out jib in 5-10 knots true to see what I can get without a spinnaker.

Also try poling out the clew to leeward and sailing deep angles. The pole will keep the jib from flogging as the main messes up its air.

 

[CapitalistSailor]

Polars

I've sailed almost 30 years on Lake Erie so I understand your dilemma. The polars for my B423 show that it is faster on a broad reach then dead down wind. Our race experience confirms that as well - but it might be a characteristic of my boat. Not sure if you can put your hands on polars or a VPP - but it would help in your decision.

Captn TJ, I've been looking around for polars. The closest I can find is a chart on Finot's site for a Beneteau 323. I've also thought of taking something from a little bigger boat that's a little older design, such as a Catalina 34 with a 150% jib, and comparing myself to that.

 

[CapitalistSailor]

Also try poling out the clew to leeward and sailing deep angles. The pole will keep the jib from flogging as the main messes up its air.

Jackdaw, I was able to run for a little while with the whisker pole last weekend. We ran (nearly) downwind in about 8-10 knots true, so about 4 apparent. It wasn't much faster than gybing back and forth, but it was a more direct course. It's not clear which would be faster to a destination dead downwind. I'll have to experiment more. There was just enough wind to fill the jib and lift the pole, but I really needed an uphaul to help lift the pole. I suppose I will have to rig an uphaul over the winter, and a tack line, too.

 

[Captn TJ]

Captn TJ, I've been looking around for polars. The closest I can find is a chart on Finot's site for a Beneteau 323. I've also thought of taking something from a little bigger boat that's a little older design, such as a Catalina 34 with a 150% jib, and comparing myself to that.

Check out Velocity Prediction Programs on the web. Here is an example. http://gvpp.sourceforge.net/

 

[CapitalistSailor]

Check out Velocity Prediction Programs on the web. Here is an example. http://gvpp.sourceforge.net/

Captn TJ, Thanks, I'll give it a try. What is your experience with this program?

I found a manual for the program at: ftp://ftp.heanet.ie/disk1/sourceforge/g/gv/gvpp/gvpp/alfa0.1/manual_EN.pdf

It appears I will need a lot of inputs that I don't have, such as the roots and chords for the keel (it's a bulb keel), and the waterplane area and wetted surface of the hull and keel, centers of buoyancy, and prismatic coefficient. Perhaps there are some standard values available that would allow me to approximate a Beneteau 311.

If I get stalled on gvpp, I'll see what else is available. I'm open to suggestions. The data offered by Beneteau is a pretty basic set of specifications.

For the benefit of everyone reading this thread, here is a link to short explanation: http://l-36.com/vpp.php. This website has all sorts of interesting things.

 

[Captn TJ]

Check out Velocity Prediction Programs on the web. Here is an example. http://gvpp.sourceforge.net/

No experience with this one - years ago US Sailing had one which I bought for my 34. Fortunately my B423 has a set - great info for determining if you're sailing the boat to its potential.

 

[Jackdaw]

Jackdaw, I was able to run for a little while with the whisker pole last weekend. We ran (nearly) downwind in about 8-10 knots true, so about 4 apparent. It wasn't much faster than gybing back and forth, but it was a more direct course. It's not clear which would be faster to a destination dead downwind. I'll have to experiment more. There was just enough wind to fill the jib and lift the pole, but I really needed an uphaul to help lift the pole. I suppose I will have to rig an uphaul over the winter, and a tack line, too.

Almost all boats will be faster bearing off.. DDW is rarely fastest to the mark.

Your boat has the same hull as the First 311, for which there are polars. You can't really use the number straight out, because the 310 is 500lbs lighter, has 100 sqr feet more sail, and a deeper keel. Also, the DW angles assume a 700 sr foot spinnaker. But with that said, the First 311 polars:

True True boat
Wind Wind speed
Speed Angle
03 140
04 140
06 143
08 144
10 147 5.5

Hot is fast. With a spi I'd figure your angles to be about the same. Just JAM, you will have to play.

The whole table is here
http://www.finot.com/bateaux/batproduction/beneteau/first310_a/First310Vpp.pdf

 

[CapitalistSailor]

Almost all boats will be faster bearing off.. DDW is rarely fastest to the mark.

Your boat has the same hull as the First 311, for which there are polars. You can't really use the number straight out, because the 310 is 500lbs lighter, has 100 sqr feet more sail, and a deeper keel. Also, the DW angles assume a 700 sr foot spinnaker. But with that said, the First 311 polars:

True True boat
Wind Wind speed
Speed Angle
03 140
04 140
06 143
08 144
10 147 5.5

Hot is fast. With a spi I'd figure your angles to be about the same. Just JAM, you will have to play.

The whole table is here
http://www.finot.com/bateaux/batproduction/beneteau/first310_a/First310Vpp.pdf

Jackdaw, thanks for the link to the First 310 polar table. The gybing angles downwind are similar to what seemed to work last week on my 311, although the 310 table almost certainly assumes a spinnaker is being used.

I'm having a little trouble figuring out the last two columns of the table. There are icons but not labels at the top of each column on the first page. The second to last column seems to be either for a flattening reef or how tight the outhaul is pulled in. The last column seems to suggest reefing, but when a value less than one is shown, the numbers seem to change gradually, and not in steps as reefing would be. Also, the angles of heel, shown in the third to last column, are surprisingly high, at 24 degrees or more. I would expect it would be faster sailing to reef some and stay a little more upright, say 12-14 degrees. Something for me to ponder, I guess.

 

[Jackdaw]

Jackdaw, thanks for the link to the First 310 polar table. The gybing angles downwind are similar to what seemed to work last week on my 311, although the 310 table almost certainly assumes a spinnaker is being used.

I'm having a little trouble figuring out the last two columns of the table. There are icons but not labels at the top of each column on the first page. The second to last column seems to be either for a flattening reef or how tight the outhaul is pulled in. The last column seems to suggest reefing, but when a value less than one is shown, the numbers seem to change gradually, and not in steps as reefing would be. Also, the angles of heel, shown in the third to last column, are surprisingly high, at 24 degrees or more. I would expect it would be faster sailing to reef some and stay a little more upright, say 12-14 degrees. Something for me to ponder, I guess.

Re the last two.
You are correct, flatness and reef. 1.0 indicated as an optimally shaped, fully powered up sail. Above a certain apparent wind speed, you have to find ways to deal with the extra pressure. So it indicates flattening and reef as a fraction. As for reefing, it helps you (your sailmaker!) figure your reef points based on your typical conditions.

AFAICT, What looks like angle of heel is actually righting moment!