Looking to put in cam cleats for the jib sheet. Does anyone have photos of where they placed them on their C22? Thinking about putting two to a side so I have one for a crew and one for when I go solo. I'm up in AK so I have another month or two to get them installed before the ice is off the lakes.
Cam Cleat Location
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on our small boats I think two on each side is completely unnecessary, unless they have been place for spinnaker or twinsail sheets/guys, and then its kind of out of position for regular jib sheets, but its your choice....
if the placement is proper and the proper cam cleat hardware is used such as an extreme angle fairlead attached to it, it can be operated from any angle and still work perfectly.
I have seen some setups that have the cam cleat mounted so the sheet has to be pulled to rearward to work properly, and others with swivel cams with a bullseye attached to lead the sheet into it, but I installed fixed cam cleats with extreme angle fairleads, and use a fixed bullseye to turn the sheet towards the cleat after the winch (but I dont use the winch).... and anyone can work it from any angle without a missed cleat or a tangle on the swivel when letting it fly on a tack.....
if the placement is proper and the proper cam cleat hardware is used such as an extreme angle fairlead attached to it, it can be operated from any angle and still work perfectly.
I have seen some setups that have the cam cleat mounted so the sheet has to be pulled to rearward to work properly, and others with swivel cams with a bullseye attached to lead the sheet into it, but I installed fixed cam cleats with extreme angle fairleads, and use a fixed bullseye to turn the sheet towards the cleat after the winch (but I dont use the winch).... and anyone can work it from any angle without a missed cleat or a tangle on the swivel when letting it fly on a tack.....
You would not want to put a extreme angle fairlead on a jibsheet camcleat; it requires the sheet to be left run through the lead. This makes using the winch and stripping the sheet very difficult.
i dont understand this... maybe im missing something.
typically I leave the sheet in the cam... all the time. it has a stopper knot in the end of it and the sheet is long enough to to allow slack for the other tack....
when i want to use the winch, I wrap it before I load it and then hold tension on the tag end after it runs thru the cam and extreme fairlead, as i crank....
there have been times that i had to luff a bit to get some slack to wrap the winch.
if I want to slack it, I uncleat it and let it out as much as I want, or let it fly after backwinding the jib, if im tacking....
I could understand the need for a free sheet on a racing boat or a boat that had some other purpose for a need for speed, but on our little pleasure craft we dont want to work that fast
i dont understand this... maybe im missing something.
typically I leave the sheet in the cam... all the time. it has a stopper knot in the end of it and the sheet is long enough to to allow slack for the other tack....
when i want to use the winch, I wrap it before I load it and then hold tension on the tag end after it runs thru the cam and extreme fairlead, as i crank....
there have been times that i had to luff a bit to get some slack to wrap the winch.
if I want to slack it, I uncleat it and let it out as much as I want, or let it fly after backwinding the jib, if im tacking....
I could understand the need for a free sheet on a racing boat or a boat that had some other purpose for a need for speed, but on our little pleasure craft we dont want to work that fast
If you are careful, you can make sure there is enough loose sheet to manage the wrapping and stripping the winch. The downside that you cannot get away from it creates a narrow range of angles and position from which you can operate the sheet. If you've found a way to make it work for you on your boat, that's awesome; that's what messing around on boats is all about. I just wouldn't recommend it generally.
Here's pix of a C22 in race mode; they have removed the winch and replaced it with a turning block. behind it are two 150 camcleats for use at two trimmer positions. The narrow coaming of the C22 makes positioning of a winch AND the 150s a tricky proposition.
that layout is like mine, but slightly different style/brands of hardware and boat, and only one cam cleat with the extreme angle front fairlead attached.
i dont use the winch cuz i dont need to, but I have it available in case i want to...
I see his sheet is also captive by the turning block if he has a stopper knot
but it's a very easy system to manage either single handed or by the crew.
i dont use the winch cuz i dont need to, but I have it available in case i want to...
I see his sheet is also captive by the turning block if he has a stopper knot
but it's a very easy system to manage either single handed or by the crew.
Yes, buts it's captive only AFTER the point where a crew ever needs to work the sheet, which was my point.
You should not have any captive devices on the cleat or between the winch and cleat.... period. You should not have any style cleat that does not allow the sheet to be thrown off cleanly and quickly.... such as a rope clutch or the spinlock snap cleat style on a headsail sheet system.
On a dinghy, with no winches... there are exceptions. But on a winch equipped boat... no captive devices such as eyestraps or fairleads should inhibit the line... if you want to change the angle the sheet is cleated by various crew then I can see the reasoning for multiple cleats... as in Jackdaw's picture. But if you had that sheet on a swivel cam with fairlead you are wasting money and endangering the safety of your vessel.
It has nothing to do with racing, daysailing or sitting in the parking lot.... it is all about functionality and safety.
My cat 27's winches angle outboard on the canted coaming. The cleating angle is difficult for standard winches. Self tailing winches, not so... The solution was to place the cleats on risers to match the plane of the sheet exiting the winch drum. That's where the cleat should be placed... on a line from the drum to the crew. Again, if you want a second set of cleats.... no biggie.. it's your boat... but in no case should the line between winch and drum be captive... on a cam cleat you simply lift up the line to disengage.
In the picture, the 2 speed primary winch has an open cam cleat on a riser. On the much smaller, single speed, secondary winch, a simple, open clam cleat is sufficient. A jam or horn cleat would work well also. The tiny cam cleat on the coaming between the winches is for the jib downhaul. The non captive sheet can be loaded or thrown off the drum very quickly... a captive sheet would not give you that functionality or convenience.
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so... in the photo Jackdaw posted, what is the difference, or WHY does it make a difference if the cam cleat would have a fairlead that would stop the knot in the sheet or if it stops a few inches beyond at the turning block?
Because, you have the turning block or lead block to catch the stopper. So the fairlead is unnecessary. Besides, the fairled's purpose is not to prevent the line from running away, it's to help with organization.... a jibsheet, however, is used quite differently that a mainsheet, traveler, vang or the other control lines, in that it must be cast off and allowed to run free when the headsail switches sides. A fairlead serves as a potentional bottleneck for a kinked line, or one entering it at a poor angle. It is also very inconvenient when sailing in gusty conditions with the sheet uncleated, held in the crew's hand to play the puffs.
You mentioned that you don't use your winches that often. Perhaps it is because the fairlead equipped cleats make them inconvenient. Winches are very handy pieces of equipment, you can use them to great effect by simply putting on a few wraps and trimming by hand. Those few wraps on the drum give you a mechanical advantage even without grinding with a handle. The friction of the winch drum allows you to easily hold the sheet uncleated. You can even try "crosswinching" ...by leading the sheet from a single wrap on the leeward winch across the cockpit to your position and use the windward winch and cleat to control your sail.
So, if I may make a suggestion, remove the fairleads from your jibsheet cleats and sail without them for a few sessions. You can always put them back if the experiment fails. But.. I imagine you'll find the winches much more useful without the fairleads and thus, use them more. I think you'll also discover other advantages .... have fun with it.
You also have to note the boat in that picture has been heavily modified by the owner... I don't think ANY part of the rigging is standard. Everything is set to be worked by hand...it's set up for two strong guys.
You would expect a winch to be between the camcleat and the turning block, and if the sheet is captive in a fairlead it's not safe. As joe says, once a line is captive, it's the boats.
My cam cleats are located just forward of the winches. I guess the PO had someone to work them from a position closer to the cabin than i normally sit. I might install a second set aft of the winches to make things easier for single-handing
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