Genoa Trim, Close Hauled - need some help

Stu Jackson · Apr 8, 2013

Tom, hard to tell about the genoa fairlead position from those photos, 'cuz we can't see what the head of the sail is doing. You're right about the luff tension on both sails. You should be able to jack the main halyard without a winch, though. You should also consider your outhaul tension on your main, it looks a big baggy in the foot. A blown out mainsail won't help you at all. Good luck.

Jackdaw · Apr 8, 2013

To start, if you main is not working well your ability to point is destroyed. The top 1/2 of your main dictates your pointing angle. Your mainsheet should be sheeted with enough tension so the top batten is parallel with the boom. In 10 knots breeze your traveler should be up to windward so your boom is on the centerline of your boat; in the pix its way below. A baggy main with too much camber will screw this all up.

You genoa has a high clew; that makes it hard to sheet well on the wind.

RichH · Apr 8, 2013

Really need more pics to evaluate .... better for some 'shots' from directly under the boom and with the camera near the deck looking up from under the jib.

From the relative height of the waves, Id say you have too much draft dialed-in for a 'speed shape' .... a guess, but really need better 'whole sail' pics.

Jib halyard / jib luff is probably with not enough tension ... look at the beginnings of 'scallops' on the jib luff between the hanks. A loose/slack luff will produce a 'flatter entry luff shape' but will be a nightmare to steer correctly in the top of the wind range (15+kts) .... causing the helmsman to 'steer toooooo often'. More jib halyard tension will cause a more 'rounded' luff entry, too; for less aggravation in steering in the higher wind ranges.
The only effective way to helm a boat with a slack jib luff and flatish luff entry is to apply a set of 'gentry tufts' about 'head high' on the jib; but completely visible at all times from the helm. http://www.arvelgentry.com/tuft.htm

From your boom (in/out) angle, it looks like youre not putting enough tension on the mainsheet .... for most boats to 'point well' that second from the top batten on the main should have its aft end more or less parallel to the boats centerline ... then all other sail shape and trim starts from this 'beginning' point. You might need to pull that traveller a bit to the weather side do this if you wind up putting too much mainsheet tension (a problem with end of boom sheeting) and which causes the leech to begin to hook up weather.

Full sail pics would permit a better analysis. ... and then some pics from a 'trial horse' buddy boat from a distance.

Bill Roosa · Apr 8, 2013

The rule is moving the car aft tightens the foot making less draft and allows more twist up high. This depowers the sail for higher winds. Moving the car forward tightens the leach adding draft and taking the twist out of the sail to power up the sail for light winds. That is all based on not changing sheet tension. You might want to consider having a fairly beefy crew member adjust the car forward. Adjusting aft is more an exercise in not going to far.
A technique i've used is to move the car a couple of positions and wait a minute to see if the speed is improving. if it went up move it in the same direction as before. if it went down move it in the other direction till you see your speed drop off. Then back off to the best speed position. Note the wind speed, and apparent wind direction, sea state and the car track position for future reference.
note that in rough seas it is very hard to get anything consistent speed wise and it becomes an art form to go fast.

Victory · Apr 8, 2013

Sail trim is covered pretty well already. So I'll recommend making sure your boat's bottom is clean and smooth. That would mean keel and rudder foils too. I'll bet your go fast competitor cleans his hull before every race.

If you don't have telltales on your mainsail leech, I'd suggest adding them. Use the leech telltales to maintain trim rather than batten position.

RichH · Apr 8, 2013

tomgrigsby said:
\
I usually did have the traveller higher, but was experimenting with putting it centerline and cranking down on the sheet to get the battens parellel with boom. I'll adjust higher to get the boom closer to centerline

If you crank down on the mainsheet, youll cause the leech to 'close' or 'hook up to weather' ... good for momentarily power-pinching but very slow for straightline sailing, even though you can point a bit higher.
Do what you need to do to get that 2nd batten's aft end parallel to the boats centerline, ditto too the leech section on the jib from about 2/3rds the way up to all the way down to the clew ...... 'straight back' and the leech tell tales also 'straight back' !!!!! If hooked up to weather will be slow, if the leech is 'open' or drooping to the lee, will also be slow .... usually fastest if the luff section is 'straight back' and parallel to the CtrLine. This all 'after' perfect set/shape ... then trim. ;-)

FWIW ... dont guess on the jib's fairlead position. Slowly head up while watching the luff telltales .... if the car is set perfectly the tales will 'break' simultaneously (top, middle, bottom) as you slowly head-up. If those luff tell tales aren't breaking simultaneously when you head up, you've got the wrong 'so-called' twist and you should move that fairlead car.

tomgrigsby said:
I didn't have the outhaul really tight as I was expecting lighter air and didn't adjust for conditions.

A common misconception .... you adjust the outhaul for speed/power ratio .... flat/full draft .... according to the SPEEDO. The waves in your pic were relatively FLAT, not requiring much power (full draft) to punch through, therefore 'flat'/speed shaped sails with a tighter outhaul. ditto too with 'light' winds: FLAT sails. Rule of thumb - Set the amount of draft according to WAVE height, the bigger the deeper the draft (when reefed too!).
How to set perfect outhaul tension: When setting the outhaul for or on a hard beat to windward, after getting perfect tell tale flow, THEN adjust the outhaul versus the maximum SPEEDO reading you can get ... then it becomes 'automatic' on exactly how much draft for the exact wind/wave conditions. If then, too much heeling, drop the traveller down a wee bit, or reef down, etc. etc.

If you want some fairly bombproof method for optimizing your boat using tell-tales: www.arvelgentry.com ----> magazine articles -----> (a sequence of 4 articles) Checking Trim on the Wind ----> Achieving Proper Balance ---> Sailing to Windward ----> Are You at Optimum Trim?

Once you arrive at perfect shape and trim for the day, then consider: http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=806425&highlight=turbo sailing post#12 "Turbo Sailing" to gain more 'lift' from the sails and keel for optimized 'pointing' and getting the keel to 'lift to windward' when pointing.
THEN additionally, as you near the layline or at the end of a tack ...for a couple/several of boat lengths away before you tack ..... then its OK (preferred) to pull hell out of the mainsheet in order to 'hook the leech of the mainsail to weather' to POWER PINCH mightily. Hooking up the main is equivalent to putting down the flaps on an airplane wing for more 'lift' and much higher pointing ... it slows the boat down when doing so, but what you save on the beginnings of the next leg will be well worth it. Sail racing is a game of inches ... power pinching to the layline or tacking point saves a LOT of distance on the next leg, sometimes a boat length or two if you master such technique. Never sail a 'straight-line' course when beating, always an "S" curve with a combo of Power-pinching and bearing off - called 'turbo sailing'. ;-)

Take some full sail pics and post them ... and we'll all see what we can recommend, suggest etc.

Scott T-Bird · Apr 12, 2013

You must be doing something right ...

I don't see any boats in front of you!

Ted · Apr 12, 2013

Sounds like the 36 & 38 should be asking some questions.

RichH · Apr 12, 2013

tomgrigsby said:
I had to read the batten thing a few times to get it; parallel to centerline (not centered). Leech parallel to centerline - hook up to weather at the mark for power & pointing?

Second batten from top nearly parallel to boat centerline when pointing with speed.
Hook up to weather a few boat lengths before tacking to 'power pinch' up to the tacking point.

tomgrigsby said:
The turbosailing technique is very interesting. If I understand correctly, foot off and speed will increase to some max as lee tales start to droop and then head up until boat slows and windward tales start to droop?

...
Yes, all steering done slowly, as it takes time for each flow regime to establish; watch the speedo until you master the technique; ... ultimately you'll do this by the changes in angle of heel felt in the seat of your pants. Dont foot off too far to leeward as you have to 'come back', just 'press down' on those windward tell tales and be mindful of the change in the amount of heeling; when youve built up speed use that momentum to cross over to a higher sailing angle; when speed begins to bleed off ... bear off slightly and start all over. In you minds eye, get that keel 'lifting to weather' during the 'point up', sometimes you can feel it, especially in the helm. You need a very very slight weather helm, almost a 'neutral' helm, so youre not dragging the rudder at an angle and slowing the boat .. no fast rudder movements. Keep records ... speed, VMG, angle of heel, wind speed, wave height when 'working this out' during trials. ;-)

Rudder pressure during a tack ..... use constant pressure on the tiller/wheel so the boat steers in an elliptical turn. Dont FORCE the rudder over as it will slow the boat ... use constant pressure through 'finger tips' on the helm instead, ease off at the end of the turn ... let momentum help the turn ... just dont STOP the boat by 'jamming over' the rudder!!!
Use a stopwatch for your tacks during workouts and trials .... get the fastest tacking time with least decrease of speed.

Can you 'roll tack' your boat? if not, learn to do.

RichH · Apr 15, 2013

Tom if you set up correctly .... mainsail SHAPE will be vitally important to get good flow over the jib/genoa; and, when in low wind speed conditions, you should see the tell tales starting to point FORWARD ... illustrating that air flow CIRCULATES AROUND sails.

If you havent read how to set-up/shape a mainsail for best 'day to day' conditions and to get perfect 'helm': http://www.ftp.tognews.com/GoogleFiles/Matching Luff Hollow.pdf and then: http://www.ftp.tognews.com/GoogleFiles/Matching Luff Hollow.pdf to get optimum jib shape
..... and then start concentrating on setting the 'slot open' distance (while using the SPEEDO or VMG) to get even more speed out of the boat ..... 'barber hauling' and its adjustment is fully described in those arvelgentry.com (last article) in that 'sequence of articles'.
Setting the slot open distance correctly will optimize the 'bootstrapping' or the 'dumping velocity' from the jib's leech to the point of maximum draft on the MAIN sail. The MAIN sail flow is what makes the jib work in 'optimized' flow and will maximize the 'upwash' (air getting out of the way of the oncoming sails) way out in front of that jib.
When setting up the barber-hauler correctly and with an optimized trim and shaping of the sails, ignore any so-called 'backwinding' and concentrate on the SPEEDO or VMG ..... pull in or ease out the barber-hauler to get best boat speed or VMG and ignoring any so called 'backwinding' .... as when setting the barberhauler what youre after is SPEED and pointing ability.

Best is to set up a 'data program' to track all the multiple variables going on ... keep records so you can see your 'progress' .... amount of draft, slot distance, windspeed, wave height, TEMPERATURE, etc. etc. etc. etc. ... and then 'tacking efficiency' in total time (seconds) from max speed into the tack to max. speed out of the tack, etc.
Consider to put measurement marks on all control lines and clew, halyard, fairlead car, jibsheets, mainsheet, traveller, heel angle, etc. etc. positions during your 'optimization' trials .... so you can save a lot of time in setting up during different wind/wave/TEMPERATURE conditions.

wufibugs · Apr 15, 2013

Wait, Rich. Aren't both links in your last post the same? Was the second page supposed to have content?

RichH · Apr 15, 2013

Sorry, some days Im more blind than others....
Here's the missing post to insure that you have correct mainsail halyard / cunningham tension so that where the 'point of maximum draft' is 'purrrfect' for proper helm pressure. ... plus the shape problems/faults that develop over time with dacron mainsails and what to do about it:
http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=120970

Genoa Trim, Close Hauled - need some help

.

Attachments

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.