Cutlas Bearing Replacement ??

[Rag Bagger]

I was just told that there is some play in the shaft at the cutlass bearing, meaning it will need to be replaced soon. Not the problem. The yard said that they need to cut the shaft, to pull it, to replace the bearing. Can anyone fill me in. Is this true and if so is it a difficult and expensive job? Always something on my beloved boat. I have a 1986 Catalina 30 and all is probabily original. She has a Universal M25 diesel with a Hurst Trans. (Not sure of the spelling)

 

[Sailvayu]

I can't remember right off but I think your strut is open on both ends and correct me if I am wrong about that. Assuming I am correct then they should not have to remove the shaft at all. A decent yard will have a hydraulic tool to press the bearing out with the shaft in place. In fact the shaft helps hold all the bits in place while doing it. Now if the bearing is in the end of the keel they may have to remove the shaft but they would only have to cut it if the coupling is stuck on and that only happens in 1 in 10 or so maybe less. So It sounds like maybe the yard is not properly equipped to do this job. Unless they can explain this better in a way that makes sense I might try another yard.

 

[Me and Boo]

Do a search on youtube for cutlass bearing replacement. There is a nice video of a Catalina 30 having her bearing removed and inserted.

 

[Maine Sail]

#1 Your yard is doing the right thing by telling you that the shaft has to be cut. At least they are not going to use a "slide hammer" to remove the shaft from the coupling and destroy your gear in the process.. Most "hack yards" send the yard monkey out there with s slide hammer. A few weeks later your gear box fails and no one has a clue why....

#2 Your yard is simply not equipped to be doing this job. Any yard that does not own at least a Strut-Pro or hydraulic tool is doing themselves and customers a great disservice.

#3 Buy yourself the Sru-Pro and do it yourself. When you're done sell it here and pass it along. You'll come out way ahead...

 

[Sailvayu]

I am not sure spending $400 on a tool you are going to use once is very practical for most people. Even if you do manage to resell it. Also just having the tools does not mean you are going to be able to do a good job of it. Cutlass replacements can be a pain and do not always go well and there are tricks like knowing to freeze the new bearing before installing it. This is job best left to a professional.

And I do have to say (and this does not apply just to mainsail) that I do not think referring to yard workers as "Yard monkeys" is very productive. Yes there are some bad workers out there but in my experience most yard workers try to do the best job they can and take pride in there work. I am sure we all have stories of bad works but likewise I am sure we have all seen some good ones.

 

[Charles Erwin]

Provided the shaft surface is serviceable - there is no doubt that in-place cutlass replacement (done with a press like the strut-pro which is dirt simple to use by the way) is far and away the best solution.

The reasons are simple. Even if shaft coupler separation were successful a new shaft and coupler will be necessary. This is because shaft coupler separation will result in joint clearance that is far too large due to an historic accumulation of corrosion in the joint. So in the real world, cutting the shaft to remove the parts is completely acceptable and irrelevant to the analysis since the shaft and coupler will need replacement/machining anyway.

By comparison, in place bearing removal/installation completely avoids shaft/coupler separation. At $395 the tool cost is far less a price than shaft coupler/machining and replacement and the tool quite valuable in resale.

Last the term "yard monkey" obviously refers to the methods yard bosses allow -- not the persons who do the work. There is a rule - if a slide hammer (any hammer) appears during any shaft propeller work - speed dial the police immediately.

Charles

 

[Maine Sail]

I am not sure spending $400 on a tool you are going to use once is very practical for most people. Even if you do manage to resell it. Also just having the tools does not mean you are going to be able to do a good job of it. Cutlass replacements can be a pain and do not always go well and there are tricks like knowing to freeze the new bearing before installing it. This is job best left to a professional.

This is not a difficult job to do and yes there are some tricks but none that can't be overcome by someone willing to learn.. Many owners associations own Strut-Pro tools and lend them to members, many of whom have no experience with replacing a cutlass and they seem to do okay..

So $400.00 for the tool, how much is a:

New shaft, keys, fitted & faced coupling, lap fitting the old prop to the new shaft, removal of the cutlass bearing likely with a hack-saw, re-installation of the shaft, alignment and all the associated labor? I'd bet this job, if you pay a yard for the new shaft, coupling the R&R the cutlass etc. is going to run every bit of $700.00 - $1000.00.. Even if you kept the tool you're still very likely ahead.

And I do have to say (and this does not apply just to mainsail) that I do not think referring to yard workers as "Yard monkeys" is very productive.

Please lest not misconstrue my post. I made it very clear that I was only talking about "some hack yards" and the use of slide hammers to remove shafts, a very specific scenario..

Sorry but any yard that does this as a practice should not be working on boats and they are deserving of the moniker "hack yard".. There are "hack yards" out there and a good indicator is one who uses a slide hammer to remove a shaft from a coupling that is still connected to the gear box... The use of a slide hammer to remove a shaft is like a brain surgeon using a Milwuakee Sawzall for his job....

I complemented the OP's yard for not using a slide hammer. If they do not own the proper tools then cutting the shaft is almost always the least expensive and the safest method.

Yes there are some bad workers out there but in my experience most yard workers try to do the best job they can and take pride in there work.

No doubt but my statement was very specific and about a specific type of yard, which luckily are not in the majority.

I am sure we all have stories of bad works but likewise I am sure we have all seen some good ones.

Up here in Maine there are a lot more good ones than bad still there are always places where a bad apple can be found...

 

[Sailvayu]

Shaft couplings properly removed are reused all the time. You do not have to replace both the shaft and the coupling everytime they are seperated. That is simply not true.

And I believe when some says "Most "hack yards" send the yard monkey out there" they are refering to a person not a method.

I think insulting others to make a point is not a good way to go about it. It adds little to the goal of helping other whitch is after all why we are here.

I am not sure where you got the idea that the shaft and coupling always have to be replaced if you really think this is the case I would be interested to know why. You do mention corrsion but it is rare to find it that bad between the shaft and coupling. I have seen some bad cases but the shaft being stainless does not corrode and if the coupling is that bad it can noramlly be refaced. I have yet to see one so bad on the inside it could not be re used and I have done hundreds of shaft pulls. Yes I have replaced many couplings becuase of corrsion on the outside but not the inside

So lets try to provide good information for those that do not know. Back to the OP he does need to ask the yard a few quetions and now he has some better information to do so and hopfully he will not just asume he is talking to a "yard monkey" but hopefully a proffesional. Asking the right questions will let him know whether he is being bsed or not.

 

[Sailvayu]

Sorry mainsail but I have heard you refer to yard workers as "yard monkeys" in a couple of other posts and it sort of bugs me as a marine professional. So I felt a need to say something. Not trying to start something here but it bothered me. It adds little to a productive conversation.

 

[Maine Sail]

Sorry mainsail but I have heard you refer to yard workers as "yard monkeys" in a couple of other posts and it sort of bugs me as a marine professional. So I felt a need to say something. Not trying to start something here but it bothered me. It adds little to a productive conversation.

I too am a "marine professional" and sorry but it bugs me that some bad apples give many of us a bad name. I will continue to refer to hacks and people who give the industry a bad name by terms I feel appropriate for them. I think when you look back at my comments where I used the term "yard monkey" they are in relation to egregiously bad work practices, like the use of a slide hammer to remove a coupling.

I use the term because "anyone can train a monkey" and when I refer to yard monkeys it is because I feel they have either not been trained at all, or very poorly trained and doing such poor work that "even a monkey could do it". It is no secret that some yards hire 100% unskilled labor each spring and send them out to do jobs they have no clue how to do before they have had any training to do so. Sad, but it happens, and it tends to give all of us in the industry a bad name.

You never hear about the 95% of good work that yards do only about the 5% of poor work done. Sorry but I believe in alerting folks to poor practices that can cost them money and I do and will continue to use terms like "hack yards" and "yard monkeys" to drive home the issue I am trying to convey, it seems to have worked so far..

Heck I even refer to people using slide hammers as yard moneys on my own site and have been thanked numerous times for bringing up this subject by people who chose to not have the particular yard do their work after witnessing them slam other customers gear boxes to death. Perhaps the words "yard monkey" are what made the light go off...???? The sad reality is that some yards actually know they are causing damage to the gear but still continue to do it. This is far more disgusting than doing it out of "ignorance"....

 

[Maine Sail]

Shaft couplings properly removed are reused all the time. You do not have to replace both the shaft and the coupling everytime they are seperated. That is simply not true.

And I believe when some says "Most "hack yards" send the yard monkey out there" they are refering to a person not a method.

I think insulting others to make a point is not a good way to go about it. It adds little to the goal of helping other whitch is after all why we are here.

I am not sure where you got the idea that the shaft and coupling always have to be replaced if you really think this is the case I would be interested to know why. You do mention corrsion but it is rare to find it that bad between the shaft and coupling. I have seen some bad cases but the shaft being stainless does not corrode and if the coupling is that bad it can noramlly be refaced. I have yet to see one so bad on the inside it could not be re used and I have done hundreds of shaft pulls. Yes I have replaced many couplings becuase of corrsion on the outside but not the inside

So lets try to provide good information for those that do not know. Back to the OP he does need to ask the yard a few quetions and now he has some better information to do so and hopfully he will not just asume he is talking to a "yard monkey" but hopefully a proffesional. Asking the right questions will let him know whether he is being bsed or not.

Wayne,


I too have replaced piles and piles of couplings. In all of those there have only been two, possibly three that have been reusable due to loss of fit tolerance.. I've yet to see many that did not break a good layer of rust free thus destroying the interference fit. It takes very, very little surface corrosion to destroy a light interference fit. I have a coupling on my bench right now that was recently cut out of a boat. It has been on a 5 ton press and is still stuck on there....

Here's one that was less than two months old and was already beginning to rust on. It left a good streak of rust on the SS when removed. It was one of the two or three I have found that have actually been reusable, but it was only two months old..

This one was so rusted on that......:cussing:

It cost the owner nearly 2k to rebuild the transmission due to a bent output flange...

 

[Sailvayu]

ok well you have your ways of doing things I have mine I choose not to resort to insults and will continue to. As I say it adds little to a productive discussion and honestly I feel it belittles the person using the insults. As a professional I hope you will think about this and think twice before insulting others in our field. It gives the impression all yard workers are bad. There are other ways to get your point across. I will say no more on this my opinion is known. Lets get back to helping those that need it.

 

[Charles Erwin]

You mention you would be interested to know why couplings (always) need to be replaced. The answer is we use standards.

What clearances do you use to decide whether to condemn a coupler or shaft? Do you account for crevice corrosion in the shaft surface resulting from oxygen starvation over the life of the old coupler surface joint? If so, how much is acceptable? If not, then how much shaft clean up is acceptable? Do you use the same rules when the coupler/shaft joint is tapered? Do you use the same standards for split couplers? If there are differences in tapered and and split coupler cases why do these differences matter? How do you restore the coupler internal surface, thus to maintain the required clearance, considering you are going to reduce the shaft diameter by clean up and the fact the internal diameter of the coupler has changed? (This is not a facing up exercise by the way.)

One can always "reuse" - as some favor - but that approach comes with risk. And -
risks you are willing to accept are not necessarily risks that you should visit on someone else. Simply "reusing" - unless you actually verify old parts meet accepted clearance and fit-up standards - is cheating.

Charles

 

[Maine Sail]

ok well you have your ways of doing things I have mine I choose not to resort to insults and will continue to. As I say it adds little to a productive discussion and honestly I feel it belittles the person using the insults. As a professional I hope you will think about this and think twice before insulting others in our field. It gives the impression all yard workers are bad. There are other ways to get your point across. I will say no more on this my opinion is known. Lets get back to helping those that need it.

I think what gives us a bad name is stuff like this:

Re-use of a used coupling that had lost its fit tolerance.

How do you suppose this sending unit kept diesel in the tank....

They even went so far as to molest the sender to "make it fit"..

Yep the old Vise Grip crimp.....

There was a soldered terminal on here but it broke off..

What Scotch Locks are not good on boats....? Who knew...

This yard employee decided it was fine to use the bonding circuit as the neg return to the battery for the 12V DC system ..... That thru-hull was installed only a few months prior to this photo being taken.

This owner was charged for rigging his boat and tuning his rig..

This owner was charged $675.00 to paint the bottom of his 30' boat when he could not paint it due to weather and a business trip, and the possibility of missing his launch date. He had the yard do it.

When he hauled it in the fall he found his prop, shaft and zincs all covered in copper bottom paint. They had NEVER been previously painted and the prop had been in perfect condition the year before. The prop was deemed "ruined and unusable" by two prop shops due to massive dezincification. (14 year old kid hired as summer help with no training at all)

This owner was charged for a new VHF cable terminations. The shield had never been soldered just stuffed into the PL-259.. "Can't seem to make VHF calls?"... No kidding...

No start issue 1.5 years before this picture was taken. Charge $1800.00 for work including a "new starter"... 1.5 years old...? That is some fast rust....

And this is barely scratching the surface..... Perhaps you can feel my pain, or worse my customers pains........ Trust me they used much less appropriate terms than "yard monkey"......

 

[Solstice]

To the OP, if you are new to your C30, you should consider joining the C30 association and checking to see if they have a tool loaner program. If they have a Strut-Pro you can always borrow it. If you are not comfortable using it (there are many videos and how-to's out there on doing this job), you can try to find a local professional to *use* the tool for you. My first boat was a C30 and a Strut Pro will work perfectly without removing the shaft. Of course it is possible that your shaft is worn and does in fact need replacement.

I do have to jump in on the ancillary topic though. I consider myself a very competent DIYer, but I do know my limitations (cosmetic gel coat repair for example) and my single biggest frustration with owning boats for the past 20 years is finding competent marine professionals. I happen to live in an area that has quite a large boating community and I am amazed at the lack of qualified professionals--my litmus test is when I know more than they do on how to approach a job. I will always gladly pay a premium for a qualified pro when I can find one, and treat them like gold. I'm afraid many yards have earned their reputations which is really too bad.
Full disclosure: I did practically beg MS to come down and do some work for me and probably made a pest of myself, not because I am not capable of doing the work, but because I know he could do it better

 

[Sailvayu]

There seems to be 2 schools of thought on what to do when taking a a shaft and coupling apart. Group 1 feels you should just replace the shaft and coupling no questions while I and many other yards will remove the shaft and coupling and send them off to a machine shop and have them evaluate them. In most cases they are reused. I am amusing group 1 has few if any problems once reinstalled. I know from my part I have had no problems with reusing shafts and couplings. Group 1 costs the client hundreds of dollars, while I and other yards can normally save our clients hundreds of dollars. So to those reading this my recommendation is to have a machine shop evaluate your gear. Or you can just spend the money and replace it. Every case is different and should be considered on its own there is no one set answer that will work in all cases.

I am sorry there seems to be so many out there that do not feel they can get good work done and that most yards have low quality workers. I do not think this is a good evaluation of the profession but unfortunately you hear more about the mistakes than you do about the good work. I know in forums such as this there tends to be more talk of the bad, but I also know there are some very good and caring workers out there as well.

 

[Solstice]

There seems to be 2 schools of thought on what to do when taking a a shaft and coupling apart. Group 1 feels you should just replace the shaft and coupling no questions while I and many other yards will remove the shaft and coupling and send them off to a machine shop and have them evaluate them. In most cases they are reused. I am amusing group 1 has few if any problems once reinstalled. I know from my part I have had no problems with reusing shafts and couplings. Group 1 costs the client hundreds of dollars, while I and other yards can normally save our clients hundreds of dollars. So to those reading this my recommendation is to have a machine shop evaluate your gear. Or you can just spend the money and replace it. Every case is different and should be considered on its own there is no one set answer that will work in all cases.

I am sorry there seems to be so many out there that do not feel they can get good work done and that most yards have low quality workers. I do not think this is a good evaluation of the profession but unfortunately you hear more about the mistakes than you do about the good work. I know in forums such as this there tends to be more talk of the bad, but I also know there are some very good and caring workers out there as well.

I would certainly insist on having a qualified *Prop* shop evaluate the shaft, but when I have done this in the past, it usually comes back with a new coupling.

As far as giving credit where credit is due, I will be posting a couple of examples of fantastic work I recently had done. One from Accutech Marine Propellers and the other for a canvas business. I believe word of mouth is the best form of advertising and I will be the biggest advocate of someone's work when warranted. But I'm afraid nobody will be able to convince me that the experts are few and far between, and I don't believe this is an isolated or uninformed opinion...

 

[Sailvayu]

Thanks Solstice I know there are lots of good shops out there. Unfortunately most people only talk about the bad ones and that is human nature but it bothers me that some seem to make the whole industry seem like it is full of crooks and fools. Saying something good does not hurt and those people who do try to do a good job will appreciate a mention as well.

 

[Maine Sail]

There seems to be 2 schools of thought on what to do when taking a a shaft and coupling apart. Group 1 feels you should just replace the shaft and coupling no questions while I and many other yards will remove the shaft and coupling and send them off to a machine shop and have them evaluate them. In most cases they are reused. I am amusing group 1 has few if any problems once reinstalled. I know from my part I have had no problems with reusing shafts and couplings. Group 1 costs the client hundreds of dollars, while I and other yards can normally save our clients hundreds of dollars. So to those reading this my recommendation is to have a machine shop evaluate your gear. Or you can just spend the money and replace it. Every case is different and should be considered on its own there is no one set answer that will work in all cases.

In most cases, unless the shaft has bad wear, the shaft can usually be re-used. However when checked for true many of them are not in tolerance. Straightening a small dia shaft can often cost more in labor than a new shaft. Every shaft and coupling I remove gets sent off to the machine shop for a fit & face, full inspection for straightness and any other "tune ups" required to fix previously done inappropriate work such as lack of "spotting" or lack of "relieved" key ways...

9.8 times out of 10 the removed coupling has lost tolerance for a "proper" interference fit. Problem is that there are a number of machine shops who do not "properly" fit a coupling and it can lead to issues like the photo above, or worse the shaft falls out or the sloppy fit ruins the shaft making re-use impossible. There are at least two shops in my area that I will no longer use due to sloppy work and improper machining practices.

Here's a machinist who actually "gets it" and does top quality work. My last customer who ordered a "mail order" shaft incurred $300.00 in additional work to the shaft before it was even installable. The mail order company insisted the coupling that slid freely over the shaft and with "slop" was acceptable. To some shops that level of work is "acceptable" to them.... Very sad...

Kudo's to this guy who GETS IT RIGHT! I have been harping on the details of this for years and this guy sums it all up in one video. If only all machine shops worked to his level....

I am sorry there seems to be so many out there that do not feel they can get good work done and that most yards have low quality workers. I do not think this is a good evaluation of the profession but unfortunately you hear more about the mistakes than you do about the good work. I know in forums such as this there tends to be more talk of the bad, but I also know there are some very good and caring workers out there as well.

As I mentioned earlier probably 95% of the work out there is done acceptably well it's the 5% that makes everyone look bad..

 

[Maine Sail]

I would certainly insist on having a qualified *Prop* shop evaluate the shaft, but when I have done this in the past, it usually comes back with a new coupling.

As far as giving credit where credit is due, I will be posting a couple of examples of fantastic work I recently had done. One from Accutech Marine Propellers and the other for a canvas business. I believe word of mouth is the best form of advertising and I will be the biggest advocate of someone's work when warranted. But I'm afraid nobody will be able to convince me that the experts are few and far between, and I don't believe this is an isolated or uninformed opinion...

Accutech does good machining as does NE Propeller (Ron Peck) and Rose's on the North Shore in Gloucester. Kieth Fenner of Turnwright is on the Cape and is very, very good... We are lucky to be surrounded by "competent" shafting & machine shops. Still there are a few who do sloppy work.. Stick to the above four and you'll be doing great in the NE...