wire size for run from solar panels.... crazy!

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May 23, 2007
1,306
Catalina Capri 22 Albany, Oregon
Lou, what are you planning to run for electronics? I swapped out all the lights on Verboten to LEDs and my biggest power sink is the chart plotter now @ .65a when it's on full-bright. My single panel seems to do a good job of meeting our needs . . . 'course I don't have the voluminous space you do now, so maybe you're installing a big screen tv and satellite dish? :D
 
Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
Lou, what are you planning to run for electronics? I swapped out all the lights on Verboten to LEDs and my biggest power sink is the chart plotter now @ .65a when it's on full-bright. My single panel seems to do a good job of meeting our needs . . . 'course I don't have the voluminous space you do now, so maybe you're installing a big screen tv and satellite dish? :D
there will be no tv on this boat. only rest and relaxation, maybe some food and booze....more wild women,.. who knows for sure?, but no tv...:D...
I figured my consumption at about 35amps per 24hr.... that is without conserving, so its really not so much now, or maybe never, but I dont want to have to do the wiring twice if I should want to run a small refrigerator at some point in the future, which is a strong possibility.... so i will install one panel now and one next winter.... sooner if i feel the urge. I kinda have a tendency to do things quite quickly after the inspiration hits me;)....
 
May 23, 2007
1,306
Catalina Capri 22 Albany, Oregon
Dang, where's all that power going!? I figure my worst-case daily usage is about 15 amps. Unless I miscalculated in which case I'm screwed when we go to the San Juans this summer. :D
 
Jan 22, 2008
507
Catalina 310 278 Lyndeborough NH
My boat has a 100 watt solar panel with 10 gauge wire feeding the MPPT boost charge controller feeding 210 amp-hour 24 volt battery bank.

The wiring from the batteries to the Torqeedo electric motor (10 feet out, 10 feet return) is 4 gauge. I would change this to 2 gauge if doing it again.

Since my boat is on a mooring, only the solar panel recharges the batteries. I use the motor for getting in and out of the mooring field weekends and Wednesdays for the mid-week racing. We always run late on the Wednesdays so we motor at close to hull speed for 20-30 minutes. We have never run out of battery power.

A 12 watt solar panel can take care of my "house battery" needs of lighting, communication, and navigation. Since we are day sailors, we do not need refrigeration, entertainment, or AC.
 
Mar 26, 2011
3,677
Corsair F-24 MK I Deale, MD
Perhaps a factor that contributed to the range of advice for panels is that as the voltage drops below 13 volts, there is VERY LITTLE ACTUAL CHARGING. Thus, voltage drop in solar panel cabling is generally more critical than, say, lighting, since only the voltage above the battery voltage is of any value. A 10% drop in voltage may render the panels nearly ineffective.

While light wire would be safe from a heating perspective, the panels will basically turn off early as the state of charge rises.

Using a MPPT controller and going in parallel changes this, but adds new problems with shading.
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
Thinwater is correct, you need to get a panel that has 36 cells to get enough voltage (>18) to account for drops due to the panel heating up.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,701
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
My boat has a 100 watt solar panel with 10 gauge wire feeding the MPPT boost charge controller feeding 210 amp-hour 24 volt battery bank.
Where did you find a 100W, 24V nominal panel (35V+/- Vmp)? These are rare birds in a quality panel? I could use a source for a quality 24V panel in this size range....
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,241
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Maybe it's a dumb question, but if the length of run is such a factor, why not mount the controller near the stern? Why does it need to be mounted on a forward bulhead?
 
Jan 4, 2010
1,037
Farr 30 San Francisco
The problems only become worse after the controller. The MPPT type are switchers.
They take as input the solar panel at MPP lets say 10A and 15V (150W) and convert that to an output of Vbattery (say 13V ) at almost 100% efficiency in this case 11.5A.

So post controller currents are higher.
 

Sumner

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Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
Where did you find a 100W, 24V nominal panel (35V+/- Vmp)? These are rare birds in a quality panel? I could use a source for a quality 24V panel in this size range....
Not sure if he said what the Vmp was. Most of these 24 volt panels...

http://www.solarblvd.com/Solar-Panels-&-Systems-24-Volt-Solar-Panels/c1_270/index.html

... are in the 28 to 30 volt range. We have used their in house 12 volt Solar Cynergy panels....

http://www.solarblvd.com/Solar-Panels-&-Systems-Individual-Solar-Panels/c1_25/index.html

..... with good luck, but it doesn't look like they put 24 volt panels together themselves but I'd be tempted to buy one of the ones listed if I wanted a 24 volt panel. We plan on adding a lot of solar to the house (2000-3000 watts) and will call and talk to them about the 24 volt panels at that time. So far they have been good people to deal with,

Sum

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Our Endeavour 37

Our MacGregor 26-S Pages

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Mac-Venture Links
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
Those higher voltage panels are being produced for the home solar industry. You use the with a grid tie inverter. 48 volts is common for an inverter input so they series two together.
Vmp varies with the amount of sunlight that is falling on the panel. It is approximately 0.76* Voc (open circuit) for mono and poly crystal panels.
What they don't tell you is sure the conversion efficiency of MPP controllers is in the high 90s but to get that they have to turn off the panel, measure the Voc, calculate the Vmp then turn the panel back on. Soooooo you have the panel turned off about 5% of the time. That pushes the total efficiency into the low 90s so why bother? A straight panel can get that kind of efficiency so you can use a pulse width controller at lower cost and achieve the same thing!
Also check the controller max input voltage. A 24 volt rated panel puts out around 36 volts in full sun and cool temps. i know my controller has a max input voltage of 30 volts.
 
Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
Dang, where's all that power going!? I figure my worst-case daily usage is about 15 amps. Unless I miscalculated in which case I'm screwed when we go to the San Juans this summer. :D
boy, there is a lot of enlightening information shared down thru this thread...

Chris, all my cabin lights right now are incandescent, except my biggest power draw right now, which is the 18" twin fluorescent light... it draws 3-3.5 amps.... I figured it at 4 hours use in the evening. i will upgrade later, but when i do i will have the excess power to run the refrigerator...

...and with the extra power ill have from the solar, I may rig up a set of charging jumpers to pass to my buddies boat so we can charge his battery when it runs out of power:D...
 
May 23, 2007
1,306
Catalina Capri 22 Albany, Oregon
...and with the extra power ill have from the solar, I may rig up a set of charging jumpers to pass to my buddies boat so we can charge his battery when it runs out of power:D...
*LOL* . . . I may hold you to that. :D
 

walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,535
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
At least we would know who has cold beer and the ability to make a lot of beer cold..

I sort of breezed through the thread link Sumner gave a few post back regarding serial or parallel panels. Maybe I missed it but I didn’t see any discussion about the most important benefit of series vs. parallel panels or going to higher voltage panels - less parasitic wire power loss. Similar in AC wiring, the higher the power the device, the higher the voltage it generally runs at. 12 volts is not good for higher power applications - you either have to go use lot of copper in the wiring or put up with high parasitic loss in the wiring. Works nicely for low power applications.

Bill, of course I have to comment on your post about the MPPT algorithm. I don’t think they need to shut off current to determine where the MPP is (maybe Im wrong – any link?).

Sometime in the fairly recent past, Maine Sail did a video on a Gensun MPPT solar charge controller using a current limit power supply to simulate a panel (which is a viable simulation). What you can see in the video is I believe the power supply turning on (or being connected) to the controlller and the current ramps up in a smooth fashion until the power supply goes into current limit but it stops and holds at that spot. If the controller tried to draw more current than the current limit threshold, the power supply in this mode would then begin to drop its voltage since it will not put out more current. But you don’t see this, current just ramps up smoothly until the limit and preserves the voltage. There are patents on MPPT (which you could easily look up by googleing MPPT patent - I didn’t try this) but it’s not hard to imagine something like a search algorithm that varied the load impedance to the panel (while preserving all the energy in the load to be transferred to the output) and continually calculating power from continuous voltage and current measurements. Then it is just some sort of search algorithm that looks for a peak in power by continually measuring the slope of the power change for a small change in load impedance. Its a fairly fast algorythm, I think it found the peak power point in a second or two.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,701
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
What they don't tell you is sure the conversion efficiency of MPP controllers is in the high 90s but to get that they have to turn off the panel, measure the Voc, calculate the Vmp then turn the panel back on.

This is true with SOME older tech MPPT controllers. Controllers such as the Genasun MPPT, Rogue etc. do not turn off to check Vmp.. The Genausn is constantly testing the power point with a modified P&O approach, about 20 times per second, and does not disconnect from the panel or batteries in order to do so. They also do not shut down in low light like some older tech MPPT controllers can. All MPPT controllers are not created equal. Even controllers that do track the Vmp by disconnecting the array vary in the speed of tracking. Some do it as quickly as .25 seconds and others can take a full 30 seconds to do so (usually Cheap Chinese eBay junk)...

That said if you have the real estate more panel wattage is often the least expensive way to gain more power. However on sailboats, where real estate is very limited, an MPPT can make a lot of sense.

I have done side by side's on boats with the Genasun and PWM and the Genasun beats the pants off the PWM even in early morning and late afternoon. I've observed 8-18% gains over PWM. Still not the claims of up to 30% but better than nothing.



Soooooo you have the panel turned off about 5% of the time. That pushes the total efficiency into the low 90s so why bother? A straight panel can get that kind of efficiency so you can use a pulse width controller at lower cost and achieve the same thing!
Your overt generalizations of all MPPT's is simply an incorrect assumption.


Also check the controller max input voltage. A 24 volt rated panel puts out around 36 volts in full sun and cool temps. i know my controller has a max input voltage of 30 volts.
When buying any panel and controller one has to be cognizant of the limitations of the controller, batteries, temp sensing, panel voltage, max array current, voltage drop in wiring etc. etc....
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,701
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Sometime in the fairly recent past, Maine Sail did a video on a Gensun MPPT solar charge controller using a current limit power supply to simulate a panel (which is a viable simulation).
 

marian

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May 21, 2010
47
beneteau beneteau 351 Penetanguishene
Do you need to turn off solar panels when connected to shor power or runing the engine?
 
Jan 22, 2008
507
Catalina 310 278 Lyndeborough NH
Where did you find a 100W, 24V nominal panel (35V+/- Vmp)? These are rare birds in a quality panel? I could use a source for a quality 24V panel in this size range....
Maine Sail,

I used a standard 12 volt 100 watt panel (Solarland SOL50100 from eMarine).

Genasun's GV-BOOST (105-350W Solar Boost Charge Controller with MPPT) takes the output from the solar panel and outputs the nominal 24 vdc levels to properly charge the 24 volt bank. I found the Genasun site after reading your Compass Marine "How To" Articles.

While talking to the people there, they told me the controller was originally designed for golf carts. It is limited to 8A and programmed for one of these output voltages: 12/24/36/48V. Custom voltage programming is also available.

genasun.com/all-products/solar-charge-controllers/for-lead/gvb-8a-pb-solar-boost-controller/
 
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