Opinions: Upgrades needed to get 22 ready for Bahama crossi

Bilbo · Mar 20, 2013

KingAirDriver said:
...............
Pilots with small, single engine, piston powered airplanes, often with either low or very high levels of experience, have this tendency to launch off on a trip to a wedding, funeral, meeting, vacation etc, in poor weather, icing conditions, bad visibility and low ceilings. These trips all to often end with a fatal crash into a neighborhood or a mountain.
Don't get stuck with "Gotta Go'itis".

Seem to remember one of these sorts of things a few decades ago near Martha's Vinyard.
BTW: I'm sorry that the original poster thinks that my one posts deserves to be censored because it may appear to be negative. In that case I wish him fair seas and I'd continue for the sake of others to warn of caution.

Chef2sail · Mar 20, 2013

Agree with Bilbo. Posting on the Internet for opinions evokes opinions. If you don't want to follow them just don't. Opinions as long as they are respectful should not be censored at the whim of someone who doesn't agree with the opinion.

That being said. You have some beefing up to do with that boat as it was not really designed for the purposes you intend o put it through. You boat should handle the worst of the conditions it will face not just the average or the ones you intend. Neptune has a habit of making his own conditions when he wants to. iMHO this is not a prudent journey in this vessel and somewhat risky overall. Considerations must be given to incidents. For instance you go with a good weather window, but your rudder breaks as it hits a coral head. Can you survive a couple days?

Same with your passages away from the more protected Bahamas. Will you survive 30 knot winds and 20 ft seas waiting for help in a C22 with a child. I am risk avergent this risk/ reward of this scenario says no, no matter what Thor Hyerdayl did. If this was your son, with your grandchild would you encourage, discourage or say nothing.

Dave

philwsailz · Mar 20, 2013

Bilbo said:
The C22 does not have an off-shore hull design. From what I've read about the design, a following sea of 8' can swamp and roll a C-22. Nothing is impossible but one is risking lives and boat by trying this sort of passage.

Chef2sail said:
Agree with Bilbo. Posting on the Internet for opinions evokes opinions. If you don't want to follow them just don't. Opinions as long as they are respectful should not be censored at the whim of someone who doesn't agree with the opinion.

That being said. You have some beefing up to do with that boat as it was not really designed for the purposes you intend o put it through. You boat should handle the worst of the conditions it will face not just the average or the ones you intend. Neptune has a habit of making his own conditions when he wants to. iMHO this is not a prudent journey in this vessel and somewhat risky overall. Considerations must be given to incidents. For instance you go with a good weather window, but your rudder breaks as it hits a coral head. Can you survive a couple days?

Same with your passages away from the more protected Bahamas. Will you survive 30 knot winds and 20 ft seas waiting for help in a C22 with a child. I am risk avergent this risk/ reward of this scenario says no, no matter what Thor Hyerdayl did. If this was your son, with your grandchild would you encourage, discourage or say nothing.

Dave

Sorry dohcdelsol but I have to probably concur with these two gentlemen. While I am not as familiar with Chef2sail, I have been reading Bilbo's posts for quite a while and I greatly respect his knowledge and carefult tact in post writing.

Bilbo's post was not negative; not pointing to any other favorite boat, or a different boat of any sort. He also was not slamming the Catalina 22, (HE owns one!

). He was only pointing out the very real fact that a C22 has several design compromises that make it a lesser choice for venturing out of sight of land. I have dearly loved both of my C22's I have owned over the years, and at times I regret I don't still have them. Awesome boats! Stiill, I would not attempt to venture across the Gulf Stream in one, whatever the weather.

To your specific questions, the items that in my opinion that would be required to beef the boat up to survive a bad turn of weather out there, (it happens, even on a small inland lake!) would result in sufficiently cutting up the cabin liner to the point of making much of its comfort go away. You will want to positively tab a few bulkheads to the hull proper, not just to the cabin liner.

You will want to move the chanplates to these tabbed in bulkheads, not relying solely on the cored deck to sustain the loads. That or you could use turnbackles and some method of extending the load down from the existing chainplate locations to the hull or tabbed in bulkheads. Either way, I see a judicious use of a Sawzall on the cabin liner to implement the bulkhead strengthening project.

Replace the existing compression post and re-design it so it carrries the mast load straight to the keel, not to the cabin liner as currently designed.
Beefier gudgeons need to be considered, as the stock ones can and will easily sheer away in the event of a rudder strike.

The old windows are suspect, as many have no real coring inside deck mold and the upper cabin liner. One might consider pulling the windows, mixing up some thickened epoxy fairing material and packign the voids between the gaps exposed by removal of the windows. then consider ditching the leak-prone aluminum window frames witha new externally mounted window system.

Multiple redundant bilge pumps, as well as a high capacity manual will be necessary, as has already been posted.

Lastly, (for this post at least) take a long hard look at your pop-top, its seals, dogging-down hardware, overall condition etc... You dont need a large leak, (or even a missing pop-top or slider) to sink the boat. Others have already talked about the need for a higher bridgedeck to keep boarding water from coming into the cabin, so I will not belabor that point.

Bottom line, the modifications that I would do to a Catalina 22 in order to feel safe with myself and my 18-month-old for the travelling you suggest exceed the value equation in my estimation.

There is ZERO wrong with a Catalina 22 and it is a wonderful boat for its intended use, but as my dad used to say, bring the right tool to the job. If I made an analogy in the automotive world, it would be akin to trying to take a sub-Saharan trek in a Ford Bronco when you are better served with a Unimog or similar expeditionary vehicle. Each vehicle fits its own application...

Jackdaw · Mar 20, 2013

Re: Opinions: Upgrades needed to get 22 ready for Bahama cro

Wow.

Let me see if I got this.

A small lake sailor plans on buying an old Catalina 22 swing keeler, and trailer down to FL with some friends. Take off for the Bahamas, and the swing around Cuba on the way to Belize? Maybe the Yucatan?

He asks for input on the plan, and several knowledgeable sailors (some whom like me have owned Catalina 22) thoughtfully suggest that this is simply not a very good idea at all.

With respect, that's the best advice you are going to get here. They are not being mean. And they don't live to rain on your parade. Its just too hard to suggest ANY way to make this safe. And the fact that you are not willing to listen makes it more dangerous, not less.

philwsailz · Mar 20, 2013

If the only tool in your bag is a hammer, you are ill equipped as a carpenter.....

I appreciate the questions you ask, still I cannot advise this as there are other boats in the class better designed for your intended use. You sound game for the task, but let me tell a little story.

I am reminded of my time as a grocery store sacker, charged with putting groceries in bags, in a logical order, taking them to the customer's car, being courteous and respectful the whole way.

One day a lady asked what bagged ice in the freeezer just outside the door to use to make ice cream. I told her crushed; my family made ice cream every weekend and I knew that worked. She told me she thought cubed would work better.

"Yes Ma'am" I replied. I won't share what I mumbled under breath.

The same kinda goes here. A bunch of C22 sailors who really know their stuff have expressed caution, yet you dismiss the input as heresy.

Go drop whatever power you want in your Bronco. It's still a Bronco. That's hard to say as a Ford guy. Still I said it. You are bucking common wisdom on the subject and looking for blind acceptance from a group of folks who really know the C22.

Get all the mods done if you want. I made my recommendations somewhat without regard to center of buoyancy, center of effort, center of everything. I feel that you stand a good chance of making the mods and building a stiffer boat that would rather spend its life upside-down instead of right-side-up.

It's your boat and your family. Beyond some common-sense fixes that have been identified, (chain plate upgrades, transom drains, fuel tank isolation) that are widely available and accepted by the C22 sailing group as a whole, I am hesitant to discuss it further. My hope was that the extensive list of uncomfortable modifications I brought up might make you reconsider. I don't want to be named in a wrongful death lawsuit so I think I will refrain from further assistance.

Don't take it too wrong, just know I think I am telling you to buy crushed ice, yet you are adamant on using cubed...

Jackdaw · Mar 20, 2013

Re: Opinions: Upgrades needed to get 22 ready for Bahama cro

From the SW lower corner of Cuba to Belize is 630 nautical miles. Even at a 4 knot average per 24 hours ( a great Catalina 22 average BTW) its a week trip. Storms blow in every 5 days. You will have no way of knowing when one coming, have the boat speed to avoid it, or the seaworthiness to withstand it. It simply requireds too much luck. Both the the boat and YOU are simply not ready for this. With all respect.

Oh. Water. Gas. Food. Electricity. Storage.

CaptDon01 · Mar 20, 2013

This has been an interesting thread as I too have plans to make a crossing to the Bahama's and some island hopping on our bucket list. The fact that you have a fixed keel version C-22 is good. But, some of the original C-22 fixed keel boats had plywood in the bottom of the keel sump,(as well as some of the earlier C-27's). In my opinion, this was a poor design choice from the factory, and I would check it very carefully, and would probably remove it and replace it with solid epoxy and fabric built up to the same thickness. I'm just not a fan of any wood in a hull, especially below the waterline. We have a wing keeled MK-II version, and having 6- 1/2" stainless steel bolts thru-bolted securing the keel to the bottom of the boat gives us a warm fuzzy feeling when we're offshore. I don't want to offend the majority of the swing-keeler's out there, or insinuate that the ocean floors are littered with C-22 swing keels, it's just our preference. Another issue on the first and second generation C-22's was leaking around the rub-rail. On our original C-22,(1980 vintage), this drove me NUTS trying to figure where the water was coming from. I figured out that while sailing, water would come up the hull and under the rub rail and into the hull. I finally picked all the calking out from the under side of the rub rail aluminum. I reinstalled 3M5200 all around. I also used 3M5200 and filled in the gap all around inside the hull where the hull and deck are joined. This made the joint stronger, and never leaked a drop again, but it was a big job and required many tubes of 3M5200. On the MK-II and Sport versions. the factory redesigned the hull and deck joint and this is no longer an issue. We have'nt changed any of the factory rigging with the exception of the adjustable back-stay, and have no intentions to change it. You're not crossing the Atlantic, it's a 70~ crossing to the Bahama's. We've done several fairly long passages in our C-22 out on the Pacific, (82 miles out and around the Los Coronado's Islands in Mexico, 48 mile crossing from Dana Point, CA to Two Harbor's on Catalina Island, 68 Miles crossing from Two harbor's on Catalina Island to Oceanside CA, and 100~ miles from Long Beach CA down to San Diego. Never felt unsafe in our C-22, and she'll take more than most people can tollerate. But, we did watch the weather, and with a little common sense, didn't feel that we were out there with a death wish. For me, an Autohelm is at the top of my list for equipment. We have the Raymarine ST2000 model. It's a way overkill for a C-22, but it responds twice a quick as the ST1000, and draws less current. On the Long Beach to San Diego run we had the autohelm on the tight-course setting and never touched the rudder. The ST2000 will keep up in a following sea condition, and in my opinion, tiller-tamer devices just never worked out. You indicated you don't have a rudder. We have the RudderCraft fixed rudder. GREAT improvement over the factory rudder, and it's semi-ballanced so it's easy on the autohelm, and steering is a two finger operation. The upgrade to 1/2" pintels and heavy duty gudgeon kit from Catalina Direct is another nice improvement we've installed. We have a dual group-27 battery set-up and LED running lights. On the 100 run down from Long Beach we stayed on one battery for the autohelm, VHF, GPS and running lights and never depleated the battery. We have a 5 HP Honda with the battery charger kit installed, and it has plenty of power, and pushes our boat to hull speed at over 20 MPG, so our 6 gallon tank has a range of 120+ miles, plus we carry a 2.5 gallon tank in the forward anchor locker. I always carry enough fuel so I can motor to my destination with plenty of reserve. For comparrison, our original C-22 had a 6 HP Johnson 2-stroke. At hull speed she would consume 3/4 of a gallon per hour, so as you can see, a 2-stroke will require a lot of fuel for the same distance as the 4-strokes,(besides being quieter). We also have a Forespar Mini-Galley for cooking. It's fully gimbled and works GREAT for heating up some chili, stew, oatmeal or soup underway, or brewing a pot of coffee. Our original C-22 had a full marine head with a 12 gallon bladder tank under the V-berth. Our current C-22 has a porta-potty with a 5 gallon holding tank. Not sure about pump-out facilities where you intend to go, could get expensive with a holding tank. Not sure of the offshore dumping rules there. Offshore at night we wear offshore rated non-inflating PFD's. During the day, we wear our self inflating PFD's. Great reading for more inspiration is Robert Crawford's book "Black Feather's". It's a GREAT book about racing his Cal-20 in the Singlehanded Trans-Pac from San Francisco to Hawaii. He goes into great detail on how and why he prepaired his boat. Lot's of good information for us C-22 offshore nut's too!

Here is a link to Dave Chamberlain's web site about sailing his 20' twin-keeled Vivacity from San Diego to Hawaii. Great information on how Dave prepared his boat for the voyage which might come in handy for getting a C-22 prepared also.

http://minibluewatersailing.com/home.cfm

Keep us posted, I'm right behind you! (after I retire)

Don

Chef2sail · Mar 20, 2013

dohcdelsol93 said:
if you have no input on what upgrades you would make to the c22 to stand up to higher wind conditions then please do not waste my time in this thread

If you cannot stand the heat leave the kitchen. IMHO when you post you cannot contain the answers. And oh by the way this site is not all about you. Others in similar or even new situations read here and it would be unconscionable and enabling on my part not to express the potential dangers of this "mission". Your continued attitude toward what you perceive as negative advice is very telling.

As long as posts are respectful as well as informative, in this public forum they are pertinent. Whether you think thy are is irrelevant as they are not just for you.

Just an FYI I once had a trailerable C22. They are great boats for thier purpose

IMHO what caught my eye was not the Bahamas crossing because that could be timed, but the extended cruising. There are so many improvments which would need to be made to make this particular boat "safe" for this venture like the proper anchor platform for a blow, the chainplates improvement, the bulkhead tabbing issue, that IMHO this cannot be done with the basic profile of this boat.

Instead of pouring money into the C22 it would be a wiser decision to find a boat more suitable for your intended purpose. Boats like the Falmouth Cutter 22, Dana 24, Flicka 20, Allegra 24 to name a few would be better suited.

To make an anology you are taking a John Deere lawn tractor, wanting to put a plow on it and plow the interstates in Minnesota. It might work in a 2 inch snowfall, but will never work in a 15 inch one. It will be come overwhelmed and break as it was not used for its intended purpose.

Best wishes in you project.

Dave

philwsailz · Mar 21, 2013

I figured it out!!!!

Here is exactly what you do to get the boat ready for your Caribbean adventure. Sorry, the obvious answer was right before my eyes.

On your Catalina 22, it's a fixed keel right?

Take that boat and carefully turn it into CASH. The more the better. Reapply CASH onto/into blue-water boat.

This is an audience-safe answer...

Chris Patterson · Mar 21, 2013

Hmm. I've thought about this some. Most of these guys on here are very eloquent. I'm not.
At first, I thought this was a hoax-post. I've seen a couple, and the problem generally resolves itself. But then, I have to take into account of the fact that there are just some "eclectic" personalities out there, and a quick glance at the T.V. confirms this immediately. Jackass comes to mind, but that's just one of them.
So, the problem for me is, a lot of VERY experienced, and well informed sailors, from C22's, to larger boats as well, have formulated some very competent and relevant responses to this inquiry. And some have been so polite as to demure, really wanting no part of a reasonably well executed suicide plan.
But for a few times to suggest that a moderator delete a post because you don't LIKE WHAT YOU HEAR? There's a problem..
And one of them is, there are going to be COMPETENT people on here, with genuine questions about the "limitations" on their boat, and for anybody without a death-wish, or a heroin addiction to suggest that this is a good plan is, well, you get the point. Maybe.
As intimated earlier, if you got on a website of model rocketry, and speculated about launching one to the moon, you might be received poorly. The same could be said for joining a local 4 wheeling club about taking your week-end puddle-jumper to the Baja 1000. While I contend that you might make it, (albeit very slowly), the likelihood exist that you probably won't make it at all. Highly likely.
And.....while the wifey may go along with this foolish endeavor, on the same intellectual equivalency of a Doomsday Prepper's mission, she's a grown woman,(hopefully), capable of making the same "adventure" decisions as you. The kid however, doesn't have that option. The child is looking to you for rational and competent decisions concerning his/her welfare. Do you think that you are standing tall at the plate with that incredibly important responsibility? Do you really?
Or is this about some ego thing? Arrogance? A huge part of around 63 known character defects that a man is known to posses?

Intelligence is learning from your mistakes.
Wisdom is learning from the mistakes of others.
Incomprehensible ignorance is the absence of both.

Ken Secor · Mar 21, 2013

Before continuing with further commentary, I urge everyone to re-read "dohcdelsol's" first post.

He's looking for ideas to make his C-22 capable of making a journey he is unsure of dates, uncertain of landfall itinerary, uncertain as to what boat modifications may be required and essentially, has some idea of some sort of trip come winter break, but nothing cast in stone and according to his own words, is at a point where his C-22 requires lots of work to simply be sailable - never mind take a trip to the moon.

Somehow "dohcdelsol" is now the subject of incessant challenge regarding his sanity and his extremely tentative sailing dream/plan - which to my read, is far more contemplative than detail specific!

He states the C-22 he bought and is working on - has already sailed the south Atlantic so he's confirmed the boat's past abilities and is contemplating taking the boat on a lengthy journey.

But he clearly states he may hang in the Keys for three weeks - before even considering a jump to some distant destination.

I very much doubt "dohcdelsol" has even purchased detailed charts to lay out a path.

I have no knowledge of the area his dream sail may involve but am reasonably certain none of his critics have either. He may know a route that would never have him more than 20 miles from land or islands?

Just because he's smart enough to ask questions about things he might do to make his C-22 better equipped to make such a journey - does not give us the right to assume he's actually going to sail to Central America without other considerations he simply has yet to share!

Attacking him, for taking a "child" seems a bit odd. He never mentioned whether that "child" would be four years old or 14.

I urge everyone to respond to his questions, not his sanity.

BTW, how many of us have actual experience in a C-22, sailing the Keys and then going to the next port via "stepping stone" ports - and perhaps ending up in the ABC's?

I say, cut him some slack. It's just a "plan." At this point he's curious. Come next winter, he and he alone will call the shot. Regardless of how it turns out, I wish him safe passage.

I've also been in 12-foot seas at the Ambrose Light off NYC when NOAA stated 2-4' seas.

No matter how safe the area we sail, it's all relative.

JK_Boston_Catalina310 · Mar 21, 2013

dohcdelsol93 said:
I picked up a Catalina 22 fin keel about a year ago for next to nothing....

Why not. There was an Italian guy who did a non-stop, solo circumnavigation in a 21 foot boat. Sure it was highly modified but I think that is what the OP is saying he is going to do.

Personally, I would quickly determine that the effort and money wouldn't be worth it. But that is a personal preference. Hey, I am planning a similar trip on my Catalina 310 and I am hearing much of the same objections.

On another note, I wouldn't bother fighting back or trying to censor other's post. Those are their opinions. Just move on without paying them attention if that is what you choose.

1. Mast, upgrade to thicker walled mast or not? along with this mast step?

What is the thickness and grade of the current mast? With that information, I am sure an engineer or some research could help you determine if the strength of that mast is an issue.

2. Sail inventory, I prefer hank on head sails to roller furling, less moving parts to fail, I can' carry 2 maybe 3 head sails off shore (storm, maybe two full sized jibs)
3. I consider two good main sails a must both with a 3rd deep reef installed

This seems like a lot of sail given the size of the boat. I would go with a storm sail and like a 110 genny for headsails and just a good mainsail. You can still get things in the areas you are planning to go. In a worst case situation, you could buy a used sail in the islands and have it modified.

4. What size running rigging would you run? I'm thinking all 3/8 for off shore, maybe 5/16 for sheets for main jib and spare.

So this would really depend on money and strength. You could get smaller diameter stuff that is strong enough but that would cost a lot of money and could actually be harder to handle. I thinks this is a math problem again. You need to figure out the size of the sail and then I would calculate the force on the sail based on say 35 kts of wind (you will have smaller sail area in higher wind as you reef but this will give you a decent margin of error). From there you can make your decision based on the price and easy of handling of the lines.

The other thing to keep in mind is your hardware. If you go up in size too much, you will have to upgrade hardware too.

5. Standing rigging: Should i go one size bigger on the rigging, i'll be putting all new for/back stays/inner/outer stays anyway along with new turnbuckles? in the past I've made my own rigging with the Hi-Mod swagless fittings. They are really nice as they have a higher failure rating than their related size wire. I also like that you can inspect all these easily for any corrosion and add some grease to them along with loctite seasonally or as needed

I would definitely go up one size. Or, a lighter weight but more expensive option would be to go with synthetic rigging. That could be a good option for you because it would save weight and help reduce weight aloft.

6. Chainplates: upgrade or no

On an older boat, I would replace them. And since you're doing that, it really isn't a bid deal to upgrade them. So yes.

7. For two adults and 1 child what size water tank and waste holding tank would you suggest? A small(ish) water making system will be installed but i would like to have enough water on board to last for at least 48 hours should it go down.

For the waste holding tank, I would go with none. I would install a nature's head instead.

For the water tank, I would look at the odd spaces where you might have room: under the v-birth, in the bilge, under settees, under the cockpit. They make inflatable holding tanks that you put in place, fill with air or water and then an epoxy hardens to fit the area you place them. Just keep in mind balancing the boat. I would then go with a minimum of 20 gallons. More will always be better in this area but weight will be a concern. You can buy water for up to a $1 per gallon in most of the areas you are talking about going. You can get it cheaper or for free in someplaces too.

For the watermaker, I like the Katadyn Powersurvivor 40E. You can run in on 12 volt power. But you can also hand pump it to make water.

8. Any upgrades to the mounting of outboard or rudder to transome?

I don't have much to offer on this other than oversize your backing plates and bed the hardware with butyl tape.

9. motor selection. I'd like a light weight 2 cycle 7-9 hp but I really want something to enable me to push this boat in a current. I want powerful without too much weight.

They can be hard to find in the states but a Tohatsu 9.8 2-stroke would probably fit the bill perfect. It weighs 57 pounds (far less than any others I have found for the size). You can still get them new in the Caribbean. It's what most of the charter fleets use for their dinghies. You could put a "big foot" prop to give you extra thrust.

Good luck and fair winds.

Jesse

oh, could you post some pics of the current condition? Just curious to see the parts of the boat that area usually covered up.

happy sailing!!![/quote]

anchorclanker · Mar 21, 2013

Re: Opinions: Upgrades needed to get 22 ready for Bahama cro

If someone wants to take a small boat, a wind surfer or jet ski or hobie cat, and cross the stream, jump off buildings with a chute, ski in avalanche country, or walk out on one inch thick ice to catch a fish, I could care less. I only care when they bring a child who has no voice or decision in the matter.

Ken Secor · Mar 21, 2013

Re: Opinions: Upgrades needed to get 22 ready for Bahama cro

Nothing like a little "think about the poor child" pandering to distort the thread even further?

The forum's now suggesting we get involved in handling child endangerment and abuse laws?

Gimme a break!

Next question: "How many times a week do you beat your wife"?

CaptDon01 · Mar 21, 2013

Ken, are you looking for an aveage? JUST KIDDING! I have to agree, the post got way off the topic, glad it wasn't just me thinking that.

"The smaller the boat, the bigger the adventure" (even if it's only a dream)

Don

Stu Jackson · Mar 21, 2013

Re: Opinions: Upgrades needed to get 22 ready for Bahama cro

I'm "conflicted" at best about the issues raised in this thread. I replied earlier in the spirit requested, and received a nice reply back from the OP.

Perhaps we are misreading the intent of his original post.

If, however, he actually does intend to sail out of the sight of land from Cuba to Belize, which his OP did infer but he kinda rescinded in a later post, then if he does he's crazy. Not only because the boat is too small or not suited for the intended voyage. I have owned and sailed hard a C22, had a C25 for 12 years and our C34 for 14. I wouldn't take our C34 on that cruise. Why? 'Cuz it is NOT a blue water boat. Forget the power, water, storage and all the rest. The bloody portlights, both fixed and opening (Becksons) just wouldn't stand up to a (potential) hammering. So, it's not only size that is an issue, it's what the blinkin' boat is made out of. If he fixes the boat up the way he says he plans to, then maybe, but it's a reach...

The suggestion to consider a "made for this sort of condition" boat has great validity.

Opinions: Upgrades needed to get 22 ready for Bahama crossi

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