swing keel
- Thread starter phil mac venture
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The keel is usually locked down when in the full down position to prevent the keel crashing back into its housing if the boat suddenly turns turtle. The thought was that it would tear the bottom of the boat to pieces. That is the least of your problems.
I've owned and sailed 5 different swing keel boats and only the Catalina 22 had a keel locking bolt. There is no way in hell that that bolt could hold a 580# keel. Additionally if the keel is locked in place and you run aground you also could damage the keel housing.
My Hunter 26 suspended the keel by line position only. It also was less than 100#.
Usually the keel simply hangs by the wire or line at any angle less than full down.
Ray
I've owned and sailed 5 different swing keel boats and only the Catalina 22 had a keel locking bolt. There is no way in hell that that bolt could hold a 580# keel. Additionally if the keel is locked in place and you run aground you also could damage the keel housing.
My Hunter 26 suspended the keel by line position only. It also was less than 100#.
Usually the keel simply hangs by the wire or line at any angle less than full down.
Ray
Our old Venture 17 had the ability to lock the keel down, and I seem to remember our Mac21 did as well. But like Ray says, it may or may not be worth the effort. I don't think I have ever seen a swing keel that would lock in anything but the fully lowered position.
Cheers,
Brad
Cheers,
Brad
I just sold my Mac 22. The answer is no. You cannot lock the mac keel in the up position.
Why do you want to do this? Your keel winch can "lock" it all the way up.
And when it is on the trailer, you should lower the keel back down so it rests on a rubber bumper on a cross beam of the trailer. That way the highway bumps don't get transmitted to the keel trunk as your keel bounces along on the highway. Just remember to raise it back up before you try and launch.... <wink>
Why do you want to do this? Your keel winch can "lock" it all the way up.
And when it is on the trailer, you should lower the keel back down so it rests on a rubber bumper on a cross beam of the trailer. That way the highway bumps don't get transmitted to the keel trunk as your keel bounces along on the highway. Just remember to raise it back up before you try and launch.... <wink>
As a former dealer, I always told never to lock a keel in any position. First in the up position on a trailer, you are putting strain on deck where the winch mechanisism is usually at and the bouncing will stress that portion of the deck as well as on the supporting bunks against the hull. That is why a keel tray is on the trailer to take that weight off. As for being in the up position at dock, I can tell you if the cable or line should break, the keel will come crashing down against the centerboard housing causing damage and I have pulled many boats out with that damage over the years.
Leave the keel down at all times unless running aground or putting on/off the trailer.
About the only time if you can and want to lock down a swing keel is in a race where you know it is deep. By the way, the lock down bolt if you hit hard aground will bend and jam the keel in place and that is a difficult situation to repair.
crazy dave condon
Leave the keel down at all times unless running aground or putting on/off the trailer.
About the only time if you can and want to lock down a swing keel is in a race where you know it is deep. By the way, the lock down bolt if you hit hard aground will bend and jam the keel in place and that is a difficult situation to repair.
crazy dave condon
There is no reason to ever lock it down. Like the C22 shown below, your keel is swept at a 30 degree angle. And for good reason. For the keel to swing back (even while unlocked) the CG (center of Gravity) of the keel would have to pass in front of the pivot point. You can see how far the bow would have to go up a wave for that to happen. Get into that condition, you got other problems.
I was told by previous owner , if knocked down by the wind , if keel was not locked it would swing into keel bay and boat would not right itself. i asked about other locking positions because in light winds there would be more drag with it all the way down.
COPIED OVER FROM THE OTHER THREAD YOU HAVE GOING IN ASK A MAC OWNER (I feel like an unnoticed MOB) -
03-11-2013, 05:10 pm #2 (permalink) topcat0399
MacGregor V224
Cheeseland
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 86
Re: swing keel
TopNo - it merely dangles from the winch cable wherever you leave it hanging.
In the shallow lakes we usually sail we never lock the keel down.
In big deep water we almost always lock the keel down (such as Lake Michigan). ShareThis
__________________
-Lake Petenwell, WI
-1973 Macgregor Venture V224 (iron keel - Yea!)
-1978 Evinrude 15 Long Shaft
Look man - now that I have a couple of years on the boat I have learned this:
For any question you ask on the internet you often get multiple opposing views on the matter.
The lesson I have learned is: Learn about the subject, consider the various views - and decide for yourself what approach you will use.
You have to use your head for the conditions you will operate in. If the situation calls for a loose keel - leave it loose in what ever position you decide. If conditions call for lock down - lock it down. Your call. Your responsibility.
Happy sails.
Like Jackdaw was saying, but to an entirely different issue; if you lay the boat over so far that the keel swings back into the boat, you've got a HELLUVA problem. There is 99% physical reason why the boat can not go over like that anyway. You would have to take a severe knock-down, I mean spreaders in the water, and then a HUGE wave hitting you on the windward side while you were down, then pushing you on over. All of this in conditions that you should not have been in anyway.
So, according to my scientific calculations, using the iterative functions of fractal geometry, the odds of that are about equal to getting eaten by a pack of wild dogs.
Now I'm not saying that this cannot be done. Of course it can. But there are 106 other things that is more likely to happen than that scenario. Attacks by killer whales comes to mind. Or a rogue satellite re-entering the gravitational pull of the earth, and crashing on your boat. The earth swinging off of its axis, reversing the magnetic fields, changing the tide swing, and being swept out to sea. Stuff like that..
So, according to my scientific calculations, using the iterative functions of fractal geometry, the odds of that are about equal to getting eaten by a pack of wild dogs.
Now I'm not saying that this cannot be done. Of course it can. But there are 106 other things that is more likely to happen than that scenario. Attacks by killer whales comes to mind. Or a rogue satellite re-entering the gravitational pull of the earth, and crashing on your boat. The earth swinging off of its axis, reversing the magnetic fields, changing the tide swing, and being swept out to sea. Stuff like that..
Cris and Jackdaw
I agree with you and like you I seldom lock my keel. But there was an article in SMA about a year ago about a guy who suffered a hard knockdown and his keel did swing (slide) back into the trunk. His boat took on water and sunk instead of righting. He was in a lake and was able to refloat it eventually. So... go figure. It does happen. I can also imagine a microburst knocking you down suddenly and the momentum of the knockdown could carry the keel back into the trunk. It probably would not cause major damage to the keel trunk but it would cause you to lose righting moment when you need it the most. It has already been said but I guess the lesson is lock it if you feel it is necessary and then be careful not to hit the bottom if you do. Otherwise leave it swingin'.
I'm interested in this topic right now as well. I'm working on a new-2-me Balboa 26 and the P.O. has glassed over the keel trunk... including the lock down pin hole. I'll probably sail 99% of the time without the keel locked but, I'm trying to get this boat up to snuff so I'd feel safe making a gulf stream crossing and ... in those situations...I'll want to lock the keel.
I agree with you and like you I seldom lock my keel. But there was an article in SMA about a year ago about a guy who suffered a hard knockdown and his keel did swing (slide) back into the trunk. His boat took on water and sunk instead of righting. He was in a lake and was able to refloat it eventually. So... go figure. It does happen. I can also imagine a microburst knocking you down suddenly and the momentum of the knockdown could carry the keel back into the trunk. It probably would not cause major damage to the keel trunk but it would cause you to lose righting moment when you need it the most. It has already been said but I guess the lesson is lock it if you feel it is necessary and then be careful not to hit the bottom if you do. Otherwise leave it swingin'.
I'm interested in this topic right now as well. I'm working on a new-2-me Balboa 26 and the P.O. has glassed over the keel trunk... including the lock down pin hole. I'll probably sail 99% of the time without the keel locked but, I'm trying to get this boat up to snuff so I'd feel safe making a gulf stream crossing and ... in those situations...I'll want to lock the keel.
to All;
When I first started sailing and operating a sailboat dealership, I was told to listen to the old salty sea dogs with the experience versus the weekend warriors and that advice was well taken. I can tell you never lock down a swing keel is the best advice as most have stated. There might be a rarity of a situation but again for the most part, never lock down a swing keel.
Rgranger, take my advice for Smith Mt. Lake as I repaired many locked down swing keels on that lake as you might know where all the shallows are but there are many you do not know where like I do. I saw the lake back fill as a kid and even was there when the ribbon was cut for Halesford Bridge.
crazy dave condon
When I first started sailing and operating a sailboat dealership, I was told to listen to the old salty sea dogs with the experience versus the weekend warriors and that advice was well taken. I can tell you never lock down a swing keel is the best advice as most have stated. There might be a rarity of a situation but again for the most part, never lock down a swing keel.
Rgranger, take my advice for Smith Mt. Lake as I repaired many locked down swing keels on that lake as you might know where all the shallows are but there are many you do not know where like I do. I saw the lake back fill as a kid and even was there when the ribbon was cut for Halesford Bridge.
crazy dave condon
A point that nobody has brought up, if he keel is locked, you can't quickly
put it up(or down)to help ease weatherhelm (or leehelm for that matter). On my boat, the keel is treated as an underwater sail, and it needs to be moved depending on the conditions.
put it up(or down)to help ease weatherhelm (or leehelm for that matter). On my boat, the keel is treated as an underwater sail, and it needs to be moved depending on the conditions.
Good point. I've done the same... and on a run I bring mine almost all the way up. I've been able to get my Mac 22 to plane on a wing&wing run.
Yep, next time you're close hauling in good breeze, with the right amount of sail up (not excessively healing) but you are fighting the tiller (weatherhelm) alot. Crank the keel up alittle (usually about 5 cranks on mine), and the helm should become more neutral. Granted you may be giving up alittle pointing ability (now you have a shallower keel), but it will be alot less work for the helmsman. I agree, on downwind work my keel is almost always up. Just don't forget to re-lower it as you turn back upwind!
The contrary approach to this "it's faster on a run with the keel up" is this: you may unexpectedly broach. Not such a good idea then.
For a complete understanding of the Catalina 22 and Catalina 25 swing keel pivot mechanism, start with the first article in this series: History of Retractable Keel Design
Swing keel boats are frequently sailed in areas of shallow water and are seldom equipped with depth sounders. The result is they sometimes run aground.
The Catalina 22 uses a locking bolt to keep the keel down in case of a knock-down. The Catalina 25 has no keel lock down system. C-25 owners may skip directly to Keel and Pivot Pin Wear.
The Catalina 22’s locking bolt acts with friction against the side of the keel. When the boat is run aground, the keel is forced past the bolt. This feature is provided as a last resort to preserve the integrity of the hull. Problems arise when the keel itself is used as a depth sounder in lieu of prudent seamanship and current charts.
There has been much discussion over the years about the locking bolt design. The arguments align in one of two camps:
1) Lock the keel down whenever sailing. The manufacturer put it there for a reason. Use it. 2) Grind the locking plate out of the boat, glass it over and remove it for good. It doesn’t work anyway and just causes problems.
Although valid arguments can be made for either view, the locking bolt is there for a reason. In case of a knock down (where a combination of wind and sea heals the boat until the mast is in the water) the keel may try to swing back into the keel trunk. If this happens, the righting moment will change and the horizontal boat will become less and less stable. With the keel entirely in the trunk, the boat may actually “turn turtle” and go entirely upside down.
Second, if the boat were to experience a violent knockdown with its keel unlocked, the keel could swing rapidly into the trunk. There is nothing to stop the motion of the keel other than the fiberglass. When 550 pounds of falling cast iron meets a fiberglass laminate, anyone can guess which one will be damaged! Serious fiberglass damage may result, further compromising the seaworthiness of the hull.
On the other hand, if you are daysailing in the Chesapeake, there isn’t much wind, you’ve listened to the weather reports, and there is a high likelihood that you will run aground, it may be prudent to leave the keel unlocked for the moment. In areas like Lake Tahoe, where a placid day can change into a 30 knot blow in ten minutes, the keel should always be locked down.
Swing keel boats are frequently sailed in areas of shallow water and are seldom equipped with depth sounders. The result is they sometimes run aground.
The Catalina 22 uses a locking bolt to keep the keel down in case of a knock-down. The Catalina 25 has no keel lock down system. C-25 owners may skip directly to Keel and Pivot Pin Wear.
The Catalina 22’s locking bolt acts with friction against the side of the keel. When the boat is run aground, the keel is forced past the bolt. This feature is provided as a last resort to preserve the integrity of the hull. Problems arise when the keel itself is used as a depth sounder in lieu of prudent seamanship and current charts.
There has been much discussion over the years about the locking bolt design. The arguments align in one of two camps:
1) Lock the keel down whenever sailing. The manufacturer put it there for a reason. Use it. 2) Grind the locking plate out of the boat, glass it over and remove it for good. It doesn’t work anyway and just causes problems.
Although valid arguments can be made for either view, the locking bolt is there for a reason. In case of a knock down (where a combination of wind and sea heals the boat until the mast is in the water) the keel may try to swing back into the keel trunk. If this happens, the righting moment will change and the horizontal boat will become less and less stable. With the keel entirely in the trunk, the boat may actually “turn turtle” and go entirely upside down.
Second, if the boat were to experience a violent knockdown with its keel unlocked, the keel could swing rapidly into the trunk. There is nothing to stop the motion of the keel other than the fiberglass. When 550 pounds of falling cast iron meets a fiberglass laminate, anyone can guess which one will be damaged! Serious fiberglass damage may result, further compromising the seaworthiness of the hull.
On the other hand, if you are daysailing in the Chesapeake, there isn’t much wind, you’ve listened to the weather reports, and there is a high likelihood that you will run aground, it may be prudent to leave the keel unlocked for the moment. In areas like Lake Tahoe, where a placid day can change into a 30 knot blow in ten minutes, the keel should always be locked down.
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