over starting line early

Davidasailor26 · Apr 18, 2024

Interesting addition to the SI’s. Do you have a particularly aggressive fleet that needs the extra disincentive to not be OCS, rather than the default rule allowing a dip start?

I would not recommend adding a prohibition against going around the boat end. If a boat is OCS on the pin end they might cause lots of “excitement” if they try to get back over to the boat end. But trying to do that would be tactically very challenging and probably lots slower than just going around the pin. If someone is OCS and one of the first boats at the boat end tacking to go around the boat is probably lots safer and faster than trying duck or cross the whole fleet to get back to the pin. In either case I’d let the tactical considerations guide the early starter on the best way around rather than trying to force one with the rules.

PaulK · Apr 18, 2024

NCBrew said:
In a small club racing, the racing instructions state "even if the I flag is not displayed, (which we never use) any boat over early must go back around either the committee boat or the pin end and restart. I think the correct way is to go back behind the starting line and do the penalty and restart. If you started on starboard tack having to Tack to port tack and go around the anchorded Committee boat is a dangerous move.
Patrick

Agree that having to go around outside of the pin or Committee boat for every OCS boat could create dangerous situations. This is probably why having to go around the ends is not standard procedure. Rule 21.1 says boats returning to start correctly must keep clear of other boats, so they have no rights. Like @Davidsailor26 suggests above, an OCS boat in the middle of the line might be able to dip back below the line with fewer crossing issues (read: more safely for all competitors) than having to round the ends. Your RC may be trying to scare people into not being early, but limiting their options could lead to collisions, damage, and people getting hurt.
Do note that beyond restarting properly by returning to the pre-start side of the line, there is no other "penalty" for being over the line early.
Unless one considers not being scored at the finish because they were OCS and didn't start properly.

shemandr · Apr 18, 2024

NCBrew said:
In a small club racing, the racing instructions state "even if the I flag is not displayed, (which we never use) any boat over early must go back around either the committee boat or the pin end and restart. I think the correct way is to go back behind the starting line and do the penalty and restart. If you started on starboard tack having to Tack to port tack and go around the anchorded Committee boat is a dangerous move.
Patrick
/QUOTE]
At least with the around the ends rule OCS boats sort of clear the starting area instead of going directly back to the line. But either way there is an opportunity for untoward events during the confusion of the start.
Speaking as a moderately successful racing starter I think it's best to hit the starting line at hull speed near the gun and in the cleanest air possible. A fleet champion with our group adds the winner of the start is revealed five minutes into the first leg.

Rodsails · May 6, 2024

In a mixed fleet I think trying to dip the line can be dangers because you have a fleet of boats behind you and I'm guessing your going pretty slow at that point. going around the ends you have a choose and it's a bigger penalty for being over early

Davidasailor26 · May 6, 2024

I just don’t like the idea of layering redundant rules to avoid the same behaviors. If a dip start would cause problems the windward/leeward rule would already force an OCS boat not to do it. Adding another rule prohibiting a dip start just takes away the option even in circumstances where it might be the safest.

I took the US Sailing basic race management seminar a couple years ago and they did talk about the extra starting penalty options. They recommended the special options primarily for fleets or situations where extra disincentive for being OCS was needed, for example after a general recall because too many boats were OCS to identify them individually. They didn’t make any suggestion to use them as an extra safety measure for routine conditions.

DArcy · May 6, 2024

This is just the I flag rule. It is unfortunate they don't always fly the flag, but if the sailing instructions indicate to assume I flag even when there isn't one then that's the rule. My club used to use the I flag rule a long time ago but now always uses P flag. I think the idea was to get OCS boats clear of the start line before they duck back to reduce mayhem. I'm not sure it actually reduced any mayhem.

30.1 I Flag Rule: If flag I has been displayed, and any part of a boat’s hull, crew or equipment is on the course side of the starting line or one of its extensions during the last minute before her starting signal, she shall sail across an extension to the pre-start side before starting.

If it was a matter of controlling an aggressive crowd on the start line, it would be better to put up a U flag or even a black flag instead of the P or I flag. That usually gets a rowdy start line to behave a little better.

30.3 U Flag Rule: If flag U has been displayed, no part of a boat’s hull, crew or equipment shall be in the triangle formed by the ends of the starting line and the first mark during the last minute before her starting signal. If a boat breaks this rule and is identified, she shall be disqualified without a hearing, but not if the race is restarted or resailed.

30.4 Black Flag Rule: If a black flag has been displayed, no part of a boat’s hull, crew or equipment shall be in the triangle formed by the ends of the starting line and the first mark during the last minute before her starting signal. If a boat breaks this rule and is identified, she shall be disqualified without a hearing, even if the race is restarted or resailed, but not if it is postponed or abandoned before the starting signal. If a general recall is signalled or the race is abandoned after the starting signal, the race committee shall display her sail number before the next warning signal for that race, and if the race is restarted or resailed she shall not sail in it. If she does so, her disqualification shall not be excluded in calculating her series score.

PaulK · May 7, 2024

DArcy said:
This is just the I flag rule. It is unfortunate they don't always fly the flag, but if the sailing instructions indicate to assume I flag even when there isn't one then that's the rule. My club used to use the I flag rule a long time ago but now always uses P flag. I think the idea was to get OCS boats clear of the start line before they duck back to reduce mayhem. I'm not sure it actually reduced any mayhem.

What do you mean by "now always uses P flag"? Just read through the rules, which suggest P be flown as the Prepatory (4 minute) signal for each class starting, in every start. Do the rules show another meaning for P being flown, or do your Sailing Instructions have a special meaning for P beyond being the Prep signal?

Davidasailor26 · May 7, 2024

PaulK said:
What do you mean by "now always uses P flag"? Just read through the rules, which suggest P be flown as the Prepatory (4 minute) signal for each class starting, in every start. Do the rules show another meaning for P being flown, or do your Sailing Instructions have a special meaning for P beyond being the Prep signal?

I don’t remember for certain, but do the special rule flags replace P as the preparatory signal?

DArcy · May 7, 2024

Yes, the P flag is flown as the preparatory flag unless one of the other flags is flown. If the U flag is flown for the preparatory flag then rule 30.3 is in effect, etc.