O'Day 302 Loses Keel - Check Yours!!
- Thread starter Maine Sail
- Start date
ODay 302--Was This a Wing Keel or Fin Keel?
I am a bit confused about this entire string--I see pictures of wing keels, ripped off keels, and references to "fin" keels. What was the keel type that broke off this vessel?
Lloyd
Rubaiyat
I am a bit confused about this entire string--I see pictures of wing keels, ripped off keels, and references to "fin" keels. What was the keel type that broke off this vessel?
Lloyd
Rubaiyat
Same here, what type of keel was it? Is it an issue with the keel type, or an issue with the boat itself?
Just curious, both my boats have encapsulated ballast, but I know someone who owns an O'day and would like to give him a heads up.
Also, are the bilge bottoms flat, or are there strengthening ribs molded it (looks flat in the pics, but no internal shots.)
Ken
Just curious, both my boats have encapsulated ballast, but I know someone who owns an O'day and would like to give him a heads up.
Also, are the bilge bottoms flat, or are there strengthening ribs molded it (looks flat in the pics, but no internal shots.)
Ken
The thread is about a particular series of O’Day built in the mid/late 80’s.. They had a bolted-on fin keel that had wings on the bottom as in the picture in Post #13. The keel is not encapsulated, it is bolted onto the “stub” , which is plainly visible in the same picture. That joint about 8” from the bottom of the boat is the joint where the keel meets the stub. The original pictures that Mainsail posted show the stub and the bottom of the stub where the bolts pulled out .. I don’t know exactly which O’Days were similarly constructed, Ken, but I would encourage your friend to talk to some folks about his boat specifically.. The problem may have been limited to winged fins since that was their last series, but I really don’t know. As was discussed, if he has a bolted on keel and it is loose, then it needs to be seriously looked at by a surveyor familiar with the boat.
Chris,
Sorry I'm months late in a response.
What I said was not intended as an empirical statement of "this stub is 1/4" thick". What is said was; "this one appears to be perhaps a 1/4" thick".Below is how I guesstimated and wound up at roughly 1/4" thick:
Safety Modification
So why not take a beam and install it inside the boat and screw it to the keel bolts as a way to prevent the keel from ripping out? Seems like some kind of insert could be made for the sump that could be installed, screwed to the keel bolts and drastically improve the integrity of this design without too much cost or effort?
So why not take a beam and install it inside the boat and screw it to the keel bolts as a way to prevent the keel from ripping out? Seems like some kind of insert could be made for the sump that could be installed, screwed to the keel bolts and drastically improve the integrity of this design without too much cost or effort?
Agree, that's what I meant by ribs in my earlier post. Something to spread the load around the sump walls and bottom better, instead of concentrating it in the middle of a wide flat area.
Ken
Ken
A broker tried to talk me into looking at one. I had heard about this being an issue on the 302 and took a pass. He had been an O'day dealer and said that this problem had been noted early in the manufacturing run and he had been one of the dealers who worked out the fix with O'day. According to him the boats were fixed during a recall, but it looks like they missed a few!
If you look at the design of the boat the wings on the keel are enormous. That has got to apply significant torque to the keel stub. Anyone with a 302 should really drop their keel and give it a hard look in my opinion, they should also stay on top of keeping their keel bolts torqued and the joint between the keel and stub well faired and leak free.
Just my 2C, but you couldn't get me out sailing on one in a small craft warning!
If you look at the design of the boat the wings on the keel are enormous. That has got to apply significant torque to the keel stub. Anyone with a 302 should really drop their keel and give it a hard look in my opinion, they should also stay on top of keeping their keel bolts torqued and the joint between the keel and stub well faired and leak free.
Just my 2C, but you couldn't get me out sailing on one in a small craft warning!
I'm actually going down to Connecticut to help a friend inspect his keel and diagnose the problem this weekend.
The section that failed appears to be considerably thicker than .25 inch. There appears to be a keel bolt hole in the very center, forward that is likely no bigger than the bolt shank indicating the bolt may have failed. The keel appears to have taken a nearly keel-length piece of the hull with it which evidently delaminated from the stub lay-up.
The thickness of that part of the hull that went with the keel would be additive to any thickness left attached to the bilge pump. The bilge pump anchor screws appear to have pulled out of the lamination that went with the keel. They may also have started some local delamination that allowed the bilge pump discharge hose to win the tug of war and end up with some of the inner hull frp laminate still attached to the pump.
Some fair sized structure from within the hull (probably keel support structure and backing plates) appear to have pulled through the bottom of the stub leaving the two large holes.
It's always difficult to look at a wreck and say with assuredness what happened and what caused it. If any rough handling with boat hauling, boat being knocked over on the hard, bouncing against a hard sand bottom or running into an obstruction while underway has occured during the boats life of if the keel bolts have not been been protected from corrosion, occasionally inspected and checked for proper tension, all bets are off.
This is especially true in a twenty year old boat.
The thickness of that part of the hull that went with the keel would be additive to any thickness left attached to the bilge pump. The bilge pump anchor screws appear to have pulled out of the lamination that went with the keel. They may also have started some local delamination that allowed the bilge pump discharge hose to win the tug of war and end up with some of the inner hull frp laminate still attached to the pump.
Some fair sized structure from within the hull (probably keel support structure and backing plates) appear to have pulled through the bottom of the stub leaving the two large holes.
It's always difficult to look at a wreck and say with assuredness what happened and what caused it. If any rough handling with boat hauling, boat being knocked over on the hard, bouncing against a hard sand bottom or running into an obstruction while underway has occured during the boats life of if the keel bolts have not been been protected from corrosion, occasionally inspected and checked for proper tension, all bets are off.
This is especially true in a twenty year old boat.
I believe he is referring to the Cynthia Woods, a Cape Fear 38,
which lost its keel in a similar manner.
So sorry to hear that and I hope everyone is safe. I hope this does not happen to many more of them.
This is now number three or four that I have heard of..
There seems to be some question about ways to strengthen the sump of a boat with a molded-in sump to which the keel is bolted.
I used to own a Niagara 26, for a decade. This was the smallest sloop built in the early 80's by high-end builder Hinterhoeller Yachts.
The external lead fin keel was a Petersen design and bolted thru the flat bottom of the sump with some unidirectional roving or bands of heavy glass fiber laid up inside that went continuously from each side of the hull bottom, down and across the sump, and up the other side for about 18". Each big ss bolt top came up thru one of these "floors" (to use more correct terminology, IIRC).
Since I have a pic of a view into the bilge of my former boat, I shall attach it to give a better idea of what this looks like.
IMHO, this is the easiest upgrade that a good boatyard could do for an similar design with a suspected weakness in the factory layup, like an O'Day.
Regards,
FO
I used to own a Niagara 26, for a decade. This was the smallest sloop built in the early 80's by high-end builder Hinterhoeller Yachts.
The external lead fin keel was a Petersen design and bolted thru the flat bottom of the sump with some unidirectional roving or bands of heavy glass fiber laid up inside that went continuously from each side of the hull bottom, down and across the sump, and up the other side for about 18". Each big ss bolt top came up thru one of these "floors" (to use more correct terminology, IIRC).
Since I have a pic of a view into the bilge of my former boat, I shall attach it to give a better idea of what this looks like.
IMHO, this is the easiest upgrade that a good boatyard could do for an similar design with a suspected weakness in the factory layup, like an O'Day.
Regards,
FO
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That looks like a great solution, presuming of course that the core in the stub is still sound. Keeping the joint between the keel and stub sealed is important to core integrity. Also, I think that I would widen the footprint of the roving on the hull, as that is really your only attachment area, and then narrow it towards the top under the nut.
Bobkay -- can you tell me more?
I, too, have a O-Day 302 (1988) and would like more info on your boat and what happened: what model year, etc. Were there any signs of stress inside the bilge?
I'm planning on pulling my boat soon to have the keel looked at. Have done a very careful review of the bilge - had a structural engineering friend look, too. We can find no cracks -- no signs of any issues.
If you'd rather do this off line, let me know and we can talk via email.
Thanks.
I, too, have a O-Day 302 (1988) and would like more info on your boat and what happened: what model year, etc. Were there any signs of stress inside the bilge?
I'm planning on pulling my boat soon to have the keel looked at. Have done a very careful review of the bilge - had a structural engineering friend look, too. We can find no cracks -- no signs of any issues.
If you'd rather do this off line, let me know and we can talk via email.
Thanks.
I'm in the midst of doing that very thing on my Catalina 30 using cast 'floors'. The following pictures are of one of the casting patterns. At this stage my patterns have been completed and I'm still canvassing foundries to make the castings. I'm leaning toward stainless but two alloys of bronze are also available.
The flat tabs will be bored for the keel bolts and the Marmaduke ears will be bonded to the hull.
My vintage C-30 has the plywood shoe in the fiberglass keel stump. I have no problems - yet - just the slightest hint of the ubiquitos smile at the forward 2 " of the keel joint. The intent of the floors is to get the compression loads off the plywood.
In an earlier post in this thread I noticed a comment about only 3 bolts holding the O'Day keel on. Is this true? My Catalina has 8 bolts.
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Go with bronze.
I think you are going to a lot of trouble and expense here to introduce some potential problems. This could be done a lot cheaper and ultimately stronger. The ribs and the stiff hard spots you are introducing into the structure could make you regret this down the line.
In 2006 I was talking to a Fellow Hunter owner, his a Hunter 34 1998, mine a Hunter 356 2002. He was quite distressed as he was selling his boat and felt the Broker had allowed a potential buyer to take his boat out and caused structural damage around the Keel/Bilge area of his boat, at the time thought it was strange and I recalled he hauled the boat out and had it fixed !! Ironically 2 years later I started to take on water opened the bilge cover to see water coming from a keel bolt and exactly the same damage around the Bilge/Keel box. I pulled the boat out of the water and found so much more going on the Keel was adrift and the the structural ribs had de-laminated fore and aft of the keel and over a mtr each side of the centreline see pics. I discussed this with Hunter, and of cause they didn't want to know me, stating I must have run aground. thanks for nothing Hunter. Unfortunately I hadn't, so my insurance company didn't want to know either. approx 20k later all was fixed. I had to gut the boat and we basically ground the glass away inside and out and replaced the bottom of the boat. While the boat was supported on a frame to offload the weight of the Keel the hull was caving in under the weight so we had to re-position the Boat several times . The aft Bulkhead doesnt seem to be circumferential so the hull was collapsing until it found the bulkhead near the Aft bathroom. Very poor Hunter! I think any body who owns a mass produced boat should really consider having it structurally surveyed they may be made to a certain standard but that can be open to interpretation. I also think If you are considering strengthening you hull get an engineer to design it for you
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Great photos. Very sorry to hear about Hunter's poor treatment of you. And companies wonder why American's have become so litigious. It would be interesting to see if the increase in litigation coincided with the introduction of "planned obsolescence" by manufacturers.
Once again I am happy to have an integral keel with no bolts to worry about and having a boat manufactured by a company with tons of fiberglass / boat building experience. Leon Slickers started Slickcraft in 1954 and started S2 after selling Slickcraft when a no-compete clause kept him from building powerboats for a while. Unfortunately they stopped building large quantities of sailboats in 1986. They were taking orders for the 6.9 one design last year, but I am not sure if they actually built any.
Once again I am happy to have an integral keel with no bolts to worry about and having a boat manufactured by a company with tons of fiberglass / boat building experience. Leon Slickers started Slickcraft in 1954 and started S2 after selling Slickcraft when a no-compete clause kept him from building powerboats for a while. Unfortunately they stopped building large quantities of sailboats in 1986. They were taking orders for the 6.9 one design last year, but I am not sure if they actually built any.