Ammeter Wiring

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Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
MS
i wish I was "out cruising with spotty coverage" Going out tomorrow but Corinthian crew is acting like land lubbers and can't make a decision.....
spotty coverage sounds fun, I need more spotty coverage.
 
Nov 6, 2006
9,894
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
Man .. Bill.. that is way too simple.. anyone could understand that .. I am still leaning toward mega-ergs per milli-fortnight !
We have monsoons setting in for a few days so there will be no sailing for a bit. and it is really too hot right now..
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,674
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Was speaking with Victron Energy yesterday, on an unrelated topic, but was curious as to the sampling rate of the Victron battery monitors for capturing fast transients such as diesel engine starting. They don't publish the speed so I was curious.

The BMV series of battery monitors samples 100 times every second. They won't miss much......;)

For a 3 second start it has sampled that current/voltage 300 times and kept quite accurate track of the Ah's consumed...
 

walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,511
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
Hmm.... 100 times a second seems way to slow.

The attached picture is the current measured from a hardware store 12 volt DC to 110 VAC inverter using a scope. The negative going spikes represent the current that is drawn from the 12 volt side and you can see that the inverter pulses the current for each half cycle of the 60 Hz signal. I.e., there is a current pulse every .0083 seconds or 8.3 msec.

The whole screen shot in the picture below is only 40 msec. At 100 Hz sampling, you would have sampled FOUR times in the 40 msec. I.e., you would have done a terrible job measuring the 12 volt DC side current drawn by an inverter missing a huge amount of the detail (which you need to be accurate).

But I know my Linkite actually does a good job at this and I suspect the Victron does also. We recently just did a project with a cheap micro (like they use in the battery monitors) and it is sampling 62 THOUSAND times per second at 10 bits..

 
Feb 6, 1998
11,674
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Hmm.... 100 times a second seems way to slow.

The attached picture is the current measured from a hardware store 12 volt DC to 110 VAC inverter using a scope. The negative going spikes represent the current that is drawn from the 12 volt side and you can see that the inverter pulses the current for each half cycle of the 60 Hz signal. I.e., there is a current pulse every .0083 seconds or 8.3 msec.

The whole screen shot in the picture below is only 40 msec. At 100 Hz sampling, you would have sampled FOUR times in the 40 msec. I.e., you would have done a terrible job measuring the 12 volt DC side current drawn by an inverter missing a huge amount of the detail (which you need to be accurate).

But I know my Linkite actually does a good job at this and I suspect the Victron does also. We recently just did a project with a cheap micro (like they use in the battery monitors) and it is sampling 62 THOUSAND times per second at 10 bits..

But a starter is DC and not converting to AC like an inverter..... I do suspect it samples much faster but this is what the response was from Victron... Still, even at 100 times per second, that is plenty fast enough for keeping track of the current used from DC motor loads including the in-rush..

P.S. Which o-scope are you using? I need a portable for measuring transient spikes from such things as windlasses, thrusters etc. etc.... What would you recommend? Mine is too big to lug around and I can't keep borrowing my friends... I would prefer one that can run off a battery and do data logging.
 

walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,511
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
Dont know, I have not shopped for that sort of thing for years.

I still use the scope that measured the waveform in the picture (never any issue, completely reliable) but it’s somewhat obsolete now mostly because if you want to capture a screen image, you have to use a 3.5 inch floppy :eek: If only it had a usb port..

The one I’m using (at home) is a Tektronix TDS 3012B. Its 100 MHz bandwidth, 1.25 GS/s sampling, I don’t think you would need more than this.
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
But what about the sensitivity analysis?????
You know that in the present political environment we need to be sensitive!!!!
The thought process goes like this:
I sample the amps and volts at 100 times / second
my three digits of relevance on a 400 (don't really care at this point) AH battery is amps times hours = 0.001 or 1 amp for .001 hours or 1 hour at .001 amps. .001 hours is 3.6 seconds and I don't even care about a 0.001 amp load as that would take 400/.001= 45 years to discharge the batteries and we all know that they would go dead all by themselves in that time.
Sooo sampling at 100 times a second is going to give us a VERY good approximation of the AH into or out of the battery bank. Much higher than I can estimate the other factors like charge and discharge efficiency (charge/discharge efficiency would have to be "measured" to .001% to even make a difference), heat loss in the cabling, battery self discharge...... It just does not matter as your other unknowns are much more of a contributor than the sampling rate.
 

walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,511
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
The issue with the sampling rate comes in when you have an odd and fast current load. One thing I want to point out here is that for a battery, even though the voltage is mostly a constant 12 volt and the current is "direct" i.e., DC, the current can vary a lot and very fast with time. I think incandescent lights bulbs are about the only load on the 12 volt line that has a constant current. Just about everything has current transients, some vary faster than others.

Ill use the inverter example again.. say I’m using a 500 watt inverter to power some low power AC load

What exactly the AC load is doesn’t matter but let’s say its 20 watts. This is low power for the inverter so the inverter would tend to run at a low duty cycle. It might tend to pulse the 12 volt current for maybe 1 msec every 8.3 msec (assuming a 60 hz AC cycle). If I’m sampling this at 100 times per second, I’m taking a sample every 10 msec. Very often I would completely miss sampling the current pulse since it only last 1 msec and would underestimate the current by a large percent.

And 20 watts is not at all in the noise - that is 1.66 amps at 12 volts which for must of us is significant.

The A/D we recently used in a work project that is sampling at 62Khz would have sampled the above example 62 times during the 1 msec current pulse. This part costs $1.65 in a quantity of one, way less in volume. Even a part that samples 1/10 of that speed is still going to measure the 1 msec current pulse 6 times for each pulse. Note that on top of sampling, you also have to do processing and on my project, we are still doing a lot of processing in between A/D samples – not rocket science.

Because it’s not difficult or expensive to sample at a much higher rate than 100 hz even for a few year old design, I would expect much higher sample rates. But am guessing..
 
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