I am planning on installing a set of Lazy Jacks this season. Being an engineer, I’m always looking for a better way. I devised this layout and I would like to some hear constructive criticism regarding its usability. I haven’t seen anything like it in the archives and am wondering if I covered all the bases. The main line is installed on the upper spreaders, about 6-8inches out. On one spreader is an eye strap that attaches to an eye in end of the main line. The main line goes down under the aft end of the boom, back up to a block on the other spreader, down the mast, changes direction with another block, and then runs along the boom to a cleat. This allows the system to be deployed with a single line accessible from the cockpit. A second loop on each side of the boom provides the additional support lines. Holders at the mast can keep the line out of the way when sailing and when the sail cover is installed. The only drawback I see is someone will need to go forward to the mast and free the lines when it s time to lower the main sail. Still, it seems simpler and more functional than most of the systems I’ve seen. Anyone see a problem with it? Any improvements I haven't thought of?
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works
I cobbled up something similar and it worked fine. You'll get a lot of chafe on that ring. I'd substitute a small single block, with your rearmost line running through the pully and the shackled looped into your two front lines.
I cobbled up something similar and it worked fine. You'll get a lot of chafe on that ring. I'd substitute a small single block, with your rearmost line running through the pully and the shackled looped into your two front lines.
Can't work!
Kidding. Engineers are some of my favorite people. A couple things though. Consider leaving the system deployed while sailing. Unless you're racing, then it's just ascetics. The advantage is that you can drop the main from the cockpit without having to go forward. Second. Consider placing the cleat on the mast for the end-stop. The boom is harder to reach and the sailcloth will obstruct it if down with the cleat on the boom. Third. (they keep coming) Your system is real close to being deployable and retractable from the cockpit. A method of pulling the slip-rings to the gooseneck would do it. If you didn't have too many control lines it's a possibility. Fourth. Would you mind if I copied your plan?
Kidding. Engineers are some of my favorite people. A couple things though. Consider leaving the system deployed while sailing. Unless you're racing, then it's just ascetics. The advantage is that you can drop the main from the cockpit without having to go forward. Second. Consider placing the cleat on the mast for the end-stop. The boom is harder to reach and the sailcloth will obstruct it if down with the cleat on the boom. Third. (they keep coming) Your system is real close to being deployable and retractable from the cockpit. A method of pulling the slip-rings to the gooseneck would do it. If you didn't have too many control lines it's a possibility. Fourth. Would you mind if I copied your plan?Being an engneer myself . . .
I would prototype it -- even if it is to a smaller scale. I don't think the rings (and the lines attached through it) would end up in the position you show in your figure when the main line is tightened. Let me know how it works -- I am searhing for a good system also.
I would prototype it -- even if it is to a smaller scale. I don't think the rings (and the lines attached through it) would end up in the position you show in your figure when the main line is tightened. Let me know how it works -- I am searhing for a good system also.
Lazy Jacks
You may want to look at the Dutchman System. I have used both ststems and would never go back to Lazy Jacks !!!!
You may want to look at the Dutchman System. I have used both ststems and would never go back to Lazy Jacks !!!!
keep these ideas coming
I love design by commitee... So far I like Paul's suggestion on replacing the rings with small blocks to prevent the chafe. All of Freds comments are correct for the most part. It is very close to becoming a system that can be deployed from the cockpit. That might be my next step, if i decide its worth getting the extra gear. I could just add the required lines. Fred, for me in my H31, the end of the boom extends beyond the companionway by about a foot. Its pretty easy for me to reach that last foot. Your H34 might be different. Also there is very little sail cloth getting stored on that last foot of the boom, but you could be correct to some degree that it will obstruct the cleat. In any event a mast mounted cleat is certainly acceptable. I thought of Steves point as well. The prototype aspect is a given. I would highly recommend installing the main line first, then add the seconday lines and see how it goes. If he is correct about the lines not being in the correct position, I think all that is necessary is to add a couple of Jamstoppers on the secondary lines that are large enough to not fit through the rings/blocks. Anyone should feel free to copy any part of the design.
I love design by commitee... So far I like Paul's suggestion on replacing the rings with small blocks to prevent the chafe. All of Freds comments are correct for the most part. It is very close to becoming a system that can be deployed from the cockpit. That might be my next step, if i decide its worth getting the extra gear. I could just add the required lines. Fred, for me in my H31, the end of the boom extends beyond the companionway by about a foot. Its pretty easy for me to reach that last foot. Your H34 might be different. Also there is very little sail cloth getting stored on that last foot of the boom, but you could be correct to some degree that it will obstruct the cleat. In any event a mast mounted cleat is certainly acceptable. I thought of Steves point as well. The prototype aspect is a given. I would highly recommend installing the main line first, then add the seconday lines and see how it goes. If he is correct about the lines not being in the correct position, I think all that is necessary is to add a couple of Jamstoppers on the secondary lines that are large enough to not fit through the rings/blocks. Anyone should feel free to copy any part of the design.
Work in process
I am currently redoing mine. I intend to use shock cord for the lower portions that go up to the ring. This will allow them to flex with the boom height. If I lower the boom to flake and stow the sail I don't have to adjust them. I am always a little hesitant in drilling and attaching anything to my mast or boom. Should I look for aluminium fittings to avoid dissimilar metals?
I am currently redoing mine. I intend to use shock cord for the lower portions that go up to the ring. This will allow them to flex with the boom height. If I lower the boom to flake and stow the sail I don't have to adjust them. I am always a little hesitant in drilling and attaching anything to my mast or boom. Should I look for aluminium fittings to avoid dissimilar metals?
Shock Cords (bungee)
I used long lengths of bungee type shock cord when I built the 1st version of mine last season. When I slack the halyards that lift the bungee cradle, the cord retracts along the length of the boom, but the halyards are still in place unless I detach them and cleat them forward at the mast. I only really need to do that when putting on the sail cover. My boat is an H23, so the bungee might not be stout enough for a bigger sail. I tied the halyards off at the spreader-mast connection, but might try moving them out 6" or so and hang small blocks to turn the line down and give me a more convenient way to ease the lift.
I used long lengths of bungee type shock cord when I built the 1st version of mine last season. When I slack the halyards that lift the bungee cradle, the cord retracts along the length of the boom, but the halyards are still in place unless I detach them and cleat them forward at the mast. I only really need to do that when putting on the sail cover. My boat is an H23, so the bungee might not be stout enough for a bigger sail. I tied the halyards off at the spreader-mast connection, but might try moving them out 6" or so and hang small blocks to turn the line down and give me a more convenient way to ease the lift.
Us Engineers Got to Stick Together
Paul, It seemed to me there had been no original thought put into lazy jacks since Lowell North tried the first one decades ago. My boat (H376) has a wire topping lift encased in soft polythene. Previous experience with lazy jacks on other boats showed that the batten ends and pockets always catch in the jacks when either raising or lowering the sail. So; I took my jacks as a single line on each side of the sail-coat, also designed and made by myself, and these go VERTICALLY to small rings seized to the topping lift. Each attachment point on the sail-coat is about 18" ahead of each batten pocket end so there is no way they can catch the batten pockets. I have 4 rings on the topping lift. Also the jacks are always in line with the sail wherever the boom is set. Takes a bit of fiddling to get the lengths right but once done all works well and they never need adjusting again but don't put the top ring too near to the top of the sail as it tends to bind on the roach. The tail of the topping lift is lead to a spare jammer on the coachroof by the companionway. We sail with the topping lift about 6" slack, though it could be made long enough so the jacks can be pulled out of the airflow over the sail. But, as they are only 1/8" braided polyester cord we don't bother. Without changing the topping lift setting we just drop the sail. The boom drops down about 6" which tightens the jacks and makes the boom a better height to work with. After the sail is down and zipped into the sail-coat I just haul the boom up again out of harms way. The boom and sail is very heavy so I put a 3 part tackle at the mast and have the tail in the aforementioned jammer. Also I have the zipper working from the aft end of the boom forward to the goose neck when zipping up and it has a stop so it never unzips fully. Thus there is never a need to re-connect the zip. I even have a 4' line on it to pull it along. By this means I am never trying to work on the outboard end of the boom which is both high and dangerous when those lunatics in their power boats roar by. All works great and you could try it without needing to go up the mast or drill holes in anything. If you don't have a zip up cover it would work just as well attached to the boom.
Paul, It seemed to me there had been no original thought put into lazy jacks since Lowell North tried the first one decades ago. My boat (H376) has a wire topping lift encased in soft polythene. Previous experience with lazy jacks on other boats showed that the batten ends and pockets always catch in the jacks when either raising or lowering the sail. So; I took my jacks as a single line on each side of the sail-coat, also designed and made by myself, and these go VERTICALLY to small rings seized to the topping lift. Each attachment point on the sail-coat is about 18" ahead of each batten pocket end so there is no way they can catch the batten pockets. I have 4 rings on the topping lift. Also the jacks are always in line with the sail wherever the boom is set. Takes a bit of fiddling to get the lengths right but once done all works well and they never need adjusting again but don't put the top ring too near to the top of the sail as it tends to bind on the roach. The tail of the topping lift is lead to a spare jammer on the coachroof by the companionway. We sail with the topping lift about 6" slack, though it could be made long enough so the jacks can be pulled out of the airflow over the sail. But, as they are only 1/8" braided polyester cord we don't bother. Without changing the topping lift setting we just drop the sail. The boom drops down about 6" which tightens the jacks and makes the boom a better height to work with. After the sail is down and zipped into the sail-coat I just haul the boom up again out of harms way. The boom and sail is very heavy so I put a 3 part tackle at the mast and have the tail in the aforementioned jammer. Also I have the zipper working from the aft end of the boom forward to the goose neck when zipping up and it has a stop so it never unzips fully. Thus there is never a need to re-connect the zip. I even have a 4' line on it to pull it along. By this means I am never trying to work on the outboard end of the boom which is both high and dangerous when those lunatics in their power boats roar by. All works great and you could try it without needing to go up the mast or drill holes in anything. If you don't have a zip up cover it would work just as well attached to the boom.
Wow! some real thought here
I think engineers should all have trains too! just kidding. this looks like a good plan and freds comments sound good also. if there ie a retractor to pull the ring forward and down the chafe would be eliminated the last post was a bit confusing to me i would love to see a diagram of that system. keep thinking guys!
I think engineers should all have trains too! just kidding. this looks like a good plan and freds comments sound good also. if there ie a retractor to pull the ring forward and down the chafe would be eliminated the last post was a bit confusing to me i would love to see a diagram of that system. keep thinking guys!
Lazy Jack Question for Donalex
Donalex - what you call the sail coat is what most of us in the colonies call the sail cover - right? Is your coat/cover permanently mounted under the boom? Most of the jacks I've seen form a V shaped cradle with the bottom of the v at the boom. The width of the V is determined by where on the spreaders the top ends are attached. If I understand your description, by using the topping lift, your "V" is inverted. Last week we chartered a C&C 30. The setup on this boat had the jacks attached about 8" out on the spreaders, forming a fairly "wide" cradle. Others have said that this puts too much load on the spreaders, but it worked well on that boat. The Captain told me he always leaves his topping lift and lazy jacks deployed, long enough so that when the sail is raised, they go slack. He just didn't see any advantage of fussing with them while underway. I'll admit, heeled over at about 20 degrees doing about 6 knots in a 15 knot breeze, they were the last things on my mind as he gave me the helm for most of the trip!
Donalex - what you call the sail coat is what most of us in the colonies call the sail cover - right? Is your coat/cover permanently mounted under the boom? Most of the jacks I've seen form a V shaped cradle with the bottom of the v at the boom. The width of the V is determined by where on the spreaders the top ends are attached. If I understand your description, by using the topping lift, your "V" is inverted. Last week we chartered a C&C 30. The setup on this boat had the jacks attached about 8" out on the spreaders, forming a fairly "wide" cradle. Others have said that this puts too much load on the spreaders, but it worked well on that boat. The Captain told me he always leaves his topping lift and lazy jacks deployed, long enough so that when the sail is raised, they go slack. He just didn't see any advantage of fussing with them while underway. I'll admit, heeled over at about 20 degrees doing about 6 knots in a 15 knot breeze, they were the last things on my mind as he gave me the helm for most of the trip!
My thoughts? Hate Lazy Jacks
If the boat did not already have them I would not go through the trouble and expense of putting them on. My reasons are the following; 1) To raise the main the sail must be pointed in a very narrow slot into the wind to prevent the batten pockets from getting snagged into the jacks. 2) They must be adjusted everytime you sail. It is an additional chore. Deploying and retracting those retractable ones is just as bad. 3) On a new installation you must modify the sail cover or retract and cleat off the darn things. 4) Metal corrosion at the mast and boom where the fittings are attached will become an eyesore in a few years. Do use nylon spacers if you must. 5) Cost, what, between $50 to $300 plus labor? I don't think the benefits justify cost. A good set of sail ties does the job at under $20. 6) And last but not least they are ugly. As I see it the main purpose of the Jacks is to prevent the sail from falling on deck when raising or lowering. That can be easily handled with sail ties. Before you take off just raise the sail 25% or so keeping a couple of ties on at the back the boom. When you get ready to raise the sail just go up and release the remaining ties and pull on the halyard. When taking the sail down just grab your sail ties, release the halyard and start tying the sail in the boom from the rear forward. With lines led to the cockpit I find that by placing my foot on the halyard I can control the rate of descent of the main to prevent it from getting down on deck. Actually I usually have to go to the mast and pull on the slides to finish getting it down. Now your sail is tied for motoring or stowing away. One danger of the jacks is that in gale force winds the sail may raise itself if left untied. The admiral does very little sail work in our boat and I still don't like the jacks. You asked.
If the boat did not already have them I would not go through the trouble and expense of putting them on. My reasons are the following; 1) To raise the main the sail must be pointed in a very narrow slot into the wind to prevent the batten pockets from getting snagged into the jacks. 2) They must be adjusted everytime you sail. It is an additional chore. Deploying and retracting those retractable ones is just as bad. 3) On a new installation you must modify the sail cover or retract and cleat off the darn things. 4) Metal corrosion at the mast and boom where the fittings are attached will become an eyesore in a few years. Do use nylon spacers if you must. 5) Cost, what, between $50 to $300 plus labor? I don't think the benefits justify cost. A good set of sail ties does the job at under $20. 6) And last but not least they are ugly. As I see it the main purpose of the Jacks is to prevent the sail from falling on deck when raising or lowering. That can be easily handled with sail ties. Before you take off just raise the sail 25% or so keeping a couple of ties on at the back the boom. When you get ready to raise the sail just go up and release the remaining ties and pull on the halyard. When taking the sail down just grab your sail ties, release the halyard and start tying the sail in the boom from the rear forward. With lines led to the cockpit I find that by placing my foot on the halyard I can control the rate of descent of the main to prevent it from getting down on deck. Actually I usually have to go to the mast and pull on the slides to finish getting it down. Now your sail is tied for motoring or stowing away. One danger of the jacks is that in gale force winds the sail may raise itself if left untied. The admiral does very little sail work in our boat and I still don't like the jacks. You asked.
Well Benny...
It seems to me Lazy Jacks are a love em or hate em thing...no middle ground. But I have a few responses for you... 1) Regarding the need to to raise the main sail while pointed into the wind. Yep true. But, that narrow window can be widened significantly by stringing the upper lines to the spreaders rather than the mast. Most sailors I hear who complain about lazy jacks and a narrow window of wind have the uppers attached to the mast. Also, I was always taught to bear into the wind to raise/lower the main no matter what. To me it's already second nature. 2) They must be adjusted everytime you sail. Deploying and retracting those retractable ones is just as bad. The only adjustnment I know of IS the deploy/retract. If its laid out correctly, you may never need to leave the cockpit. I ALWAYS have to leave the cockpit to flake down and tie the sail. I'm trying to put an end to that. 3) On a new installation you must modify the sail cover or retract and cleat off the darn things. Yep...I plan on the latter.. after the boat is tied to a dock. 4) Metal corrosion... I have to take issue with this...or at least conclude that its more a salt water phenomena. I just finished rebuilding my boom, so i got to see up close and personal how it was fabricated. Its an aluminum extrusion. Nearly all the hardware attached to it is stainless. It was all assembled with aluminum rivets. There was no attempt made to isolate the two metals. It all held up for 20+ years with no corrosion issue. I doubt that a few more eyestraps and blocks will hurt it. 5) Cost, what, between $50 to $300 plus labor? I don't think the benefits justify cost. A good set of sail ties does the job at under $20. I have sail ties. I still plan to use them. 6) And last but not least they are ugly. Well, maybe... but you know what they say about beauty being in the eye of the beholder. To me, a functional system is a truly beautiful thing. Watching my fat ass flaking a sail is what's ugly. Then again.. if I could get the admiral to do it...in panties...let's not go there. I think the purpose of the Jacks is to get the main to flake more easily on the boom, and once it's there it should keep the sail cloth confinded until the boat is to the dock. At which time the sail can be tied down, the lines cleated back, and the sailcover put in place. Your method of raising it is what I pretty much do now. The idea is to not have to flake and tie the sail while on the water where my footing so much less stable. I've done both...and a decent set of Lazy Jacks makes it all so much easier. Lastly..I actually didn't ask for a critique of general Lazy Jack usefullness, just how my design can be improved, but thanks anyway.
It seems to me Lazy Jacks are a love em or hate em thing...no middle ground. But I have a few responses for you... 1) Regarding the need to to raise the main sail while pointed into the wind. Yep true. But, that narrow window can be widened significantly by stringing the upper lines to the spreaders rather than the mast. Most sailors I hear who complain about lazy jacks and a narrow window of wind have the uppers attached to the mast. Also, I was always taught to bear into the wind to raise/lower the main no matter what. To me it's already second nature. 2) They must be adjusted everytime you sail. Deploying and retracting those retractable ones is just as bad. The only adjustnment I know of IS the deploy/retract. If its laid out correctly, you may never need to leave the cockpit. I ALWAYS have to leave the cockpit to flake down and tie the sail. I'm trying to put an end to that. 3) On a new installation you must modify the sail cover or retract and cleat off the darn things. Yep...I plan on the latter.. after the boat is tied to a dock. 4) Metal corrosion... I have to take issue with this...or at least conclude that its more a salt water phenomena. I just finished rebuilding my boom, so i got to see up close and personal how it was fabricated. Its an aluminum extrusion. Nearly all the hardware attached to it is stainless. It was all assembled with aluminum rivets. There was no attempt made to isolate the two metals. It all held up for 20+ years with no corrosion issue. I doubt that a few more eyestraps and blocks will hurt it. 5) Cost, what, between $50 to $300 plus labor? I don't think the benefits justify cost. A good set of sail ties does the job at under $20. I have sail ties. I still plan to use them. 6) And last but not least they are ugly. Well, maybe... but you know what they say about beauty being in the eye of the beholder. To me, a functional system is a truly beautiful thing. Watching my fat ass flaking a sail is what's ugly. Then again.. if I could get the admiral to do it...in panties...let's not go there. I think the purpose of the Jacks is to get the main to flake more easily on the boom, and once it's there it should keep the sail cloth confinded until the boat is to the dock. At which time the sail can be tied down, the lines cleated back, and the sailcover put in place. Your method of raising it is what I pretty much do now. The idea is to not have to flake and tie the sail while on the water where my footing so much less stable. I've done both...and a decent set of Lazy Jacks makes it all so much easier. Lastly..I actually didn't ask for a critique of general Lazy Jack usefullness, just how my design can be improved, but thanks anyway.
Mike M - Answer
Yes Mike we call it a sail cover too - I'm just old fashioned and like using the so called "proper" terms! My sail cover has a strip of dacron down the middle which sits in the bolt rope groove. ie. it wraps round the sail's bolt rope. For loose footed just sails one sews in a length of cord. The cover then sits on top of the boom with the sail attached to the centre of the cover. The jacks are attached to tape loops sewn onto the upper two thirds of the cover, each 18" towards the mast of the batten ends. With the boom supported by the topping lift in the normal sailing position - ie. slack, the jacks are slightly loose so they gather the sail as it comes down and there is no tendency for it to fall off the boom. After zipping up the cover the topping lift is used to raise the boom and this further tensions the jacks so they retain the sail and cover on top of the boom. This arrangement gives far better visibility for the helmsman than when the sail drooped either side of and below the boom with the Dutchman setup.
Yes Mike we call it a sail cover too - I'm just old fashioned and like using the so called "proper" terms! My sail cover has a strip of dacron down the middle which sits in the bolt rope groove. ie. it wraps round the sail's bolt rope. For loose footed just sails one sews in a length of cord. The cover then sits on top of the boom with the sail attached to the centre of the cover. The jacks are attached to tape loops sewn onto the upper two thirds of the cover, each 18" towards the mast of the batten ends. With the boom supported by the topping lift in the normal sailing position - ie. slack, the jacks are slightly loose so they gather the sail as it comes down and there is no tendency for it to fall off the boom. After zipping up the cover the topping lift is used to raise the boom and this further tensions the jacks so they retain the sail and cover on top of the boom. This arrangement gives far better visibility for the helmsman than when the sail drooped either side of and below the boom with the Dutchman setup.
It's identical
to what we installed on our Hunter 40 nearly 6 years and 10,000 miles ago. Works beautifully. As you mentioned in one of your replies, there are no hoisting issues with battens catching because they're typically retracted at that time. My tie-off cleat is at the mast and it's fine. I can go forward and deploy them in less than 60 seconds without hurrying. I'd suggest not overcomplicating things by making all the operations happen in the cockpit. We just retract them onto the reefing hooks at the gooseneck. We deploy them when reefing for a bunch of reasons: 1. I need the reefing hooks freed for use. 2. The deployed jacks corral the reefed portions of the mainsail at the foot 3: My reefing lines are at the gooseneck anyway so I can do it all in one shot while I'm there. It takes us less than two minutes to throw in a reef in the main. The handful of times we've shaken out a reef and chose not retract the jacks it wasn't a big deal keeping an eye on the leach while hoisting to avoid snags. I'm amused by the comments about the 'aesthetics' of lazy jacks since mine are out of sight most of the time. I'm not sure I understand the chafe issue brought up but we've never had any whatsoever. Every system, whether it be Stackpack, Mackpack or Dutchman works well when adjusted properly and each requires some labor to straighten up/zip up/cover up. Pick your poison. Me? I prefer the simplicity of the retractable jacks.
to what we installed on our Hunter 40 nearly 6 years and 10,000 miles ago. Works beautifully. As you mentioned in one of your replies, there are no hoisting issues with battens catching because they're typically retracted at that time. My tie-off cleat is at the mast and it's fine. I can go forward and deploy them in less than 60 seconds without hurrying. I'd suggest not overcomplicating things by making all the operations happen in the cockpit. We just retract them onto the reefing hooks at the gooseneck. We deploy them when reefing for a bunch of reasons: 1. I need the reefing hooks freed for use. 2. The deployed jacks corral the reefed portions of the mainsail at the foot 3: My reefing lines are at the gooseneck anyway so I can do it all in one shot while I'm there. It takes us less than two minutes to throw in a reef in the main. The handful of times we've shaken out a reef and chose not retract the jacks it wasn't a big deal keeping an eye on the leach while hoisting to avoid snags. I'm amused by the comments about the 'aesthetics' of lazy jacks since mine are out of sight most of the time. I'm not sure I understand the chafe issue brought up but we've never had any whatsoever. Every system, whether it be Stackpack, Mackpack or Dutchman works well when adjusted properly and each requires some labor to straighten up/zip up/cover up. Pick your poison. Me? I prefer the simplicity of the retractable jacks.
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