Yet Another Chain Plate Question (222)

[treeman]

I have already read a lot of posts about chain plate failure and replacement thereof, bulkheads, etc.

I purchased my 1984 O'day 222 about six weeks ago. I am preparing it for winter storage.

From what I can see, my boat has already had some chain plate work, but it would be nice to hear some opinions. Do they look sound? Please see the pictures attached.

Thanks in advance for your help.

-Dan

 

[RichBone]

Looks like the plywood core is of a questionable condition and has been 'beefed up'. The fender washers look like they've been pulled into the face layer because of a soft core. If the surrounding wood is solid then maybe it will hold. Trinkka did a nice job of beefing his chainplates.

Rich

 

[Mich222]

Those little flimsy L-brackets in the cabin and smallish U-bolts on the deck comprising the original Oday 222 chainplates seem undersized. In my opinion, the original chainplate has too many parts.

The potential problem with your beefed up modification is even though some substantiation was added to the bulkhead, the flimsy little L-bracket is same as original. As I understand it, one of the Oday 222 chainplate failure mechanisms involves breaking of the flimsy little L-bracket - (specifically the corner/bend area of the L-bracket- flexes under load) .

I did as Trinkka did- and replaced mine with Oday 25 chainplates. My bulkheads had no sign of water damage. However, I discovered during regular rebeddding maintenance that the original chainplate U- bolt nut was difficult to loosen and remove- and observed that the chainplate had been bent/torqued, and threads were out of alignment.

Replacement notes: I questioned the proper installation angle of the replacement Oday 25 chainplate on the bulkhead with both Trinkka and Rudy at DR Marine. My thought was that the 25 chainplate should be mounted a bit more vertical and more in alignment with shrouds (minimize rotational force on bulkhead) . But after speaking with both, made the decision to go with angling the 25 chainplate as seen in pictures , so that that the deckside shroud attachment holes on chainplate are equidistant from the deck. If I did it over again- I would probably mount the chainplate more vertical. However, I backed the replacement chainplates with stainless bar attached from chainplate to the hull pan- so feel these are pretty securely attached. I had very large coverplates welded (approx. 3 x 6 inches) to the chainplates. After epoxy potting of through- deck holes, I installed using butyl tape.

 

[Joe11688]

I have already read a lot of posts about chain plate failure and replacement thereof, bulkheads, etc.

I purchased my 1984 O'day 222 about six weeks ago. I am preparing it for winter storage.

From what I can see, my boat has already had some chain plate work, but it would be nice to hear some opinions. Do they look sound? Please see the pictures attached.

Thanks in advance for your help.

-Dan

Dan,
I agree with Mich. If the original "L" brackets on the bulkhead That adds reinforcement to the chainplates is going to break, it will break at the bend. I don't think that the PO really understood this when he added those extra tangs but I could be wrong about that.
The way I see it Dan is, as long as you are using 1/8" stays, and the existing "L" brackets aren't broken, you have nothing to worry about. As I had mentioned previously, a rigger increased the stay thickness on my boat when I had my new mast set up, and I believe that this caused the demise of my Starboard "L" bracket.
If your bulkhead is sound, I really don't think you will experience any problem. If it appears that moisture is coming in around your chainplates, you need to remove them and re-bed them with caulking like Butyl Tape. I would countersink the bolt holes a little on the deck before adding the Butyl Tape. This is only if water is coming in from the chainplates. Otherwise, I wouldn't worry about it. Just keep a watchful eye out for the "L" brackets and also the chainplates. If an "L" bracket breaks, you'll see the deck bulging under the chainplate on that side and it will be noticeable.
Joe

 

[treeman]

What would you make of the apparent fiberglass repair next to the port chain plate? Would that indicate that something had broken through earlier?

-Dan

 

[Joe11688]

What would you make of the apparent fiberglass repair next to the port chain plate? Would that indicate that something had broken through earlier?

-Dan

Looking at the picture with the repair, I can't see the factory non skid on the deck. I can see the non skid surface in the other picture.
If this is the case, then I guess the chainplate must have broke through the deck. Evidently, he must have repaired it or had it repaired by someone.
Outside of the owner knowing what happened, who knows what could have happened to cause this damage? A hard blow to the stays on that side could have caused the chainplate and the "L" bracket to pull right through that deck without breaking the stays or the "L" bracket.
I can show you a bent bow stem chain plate with the welded plate pulled off it. The forestay turnbuckle was still attached to the plate with the roller furler on it. The furler and forestay received no damage at all. It was just a matter of replacing the bow stem chainplate.
I would just keep an eye on it.
Joe

 

[Shoaldrafter]

chain plate discussion

I have already read a lot of posts about chain plate failure and replacement thereof, bulkheads, etc.

I purchased my 1984 O'day 222 about six weeks ago. I am preparing it for winter storage.

From what I can see, my boat has already had some chain plate work, but it would be nice to hear some opinions. Do they look sound? Please see the pictures attached.

Thanks in advance for your help.

-Dan

- - - - - - // - - - - -
Dan,

The fact that that the fender washers are slightly depressed does automatically mean the inner layer of the the plywood is defective. If you tighten the hell out of fenderwashers on plywood they will eventually cause some depression. Plywood, even marine plywood which has no voids, will compress. That is nature of many woods and plywood.

Teak and Mahogany are two woods that are hard and will depress less than other woods such as poplar. But even solid teak can be compressed a little when sufficient torque is applied.

On the repair in question, my recommendation is after mast is down, remove all bolts and inject epoxy into wood area in question. Use thin or penetrating epoxy. And cool conditions will slow the kicking of the epoxy thus allowing it to penetrate deeper.

Once the epoxy sets, allow time for complete cure. In warm conditions, that is 70 degrees F., that is about 72 hours. In cooler temps wait longer. In cold conditions use portable heater if that is available option.

Once epoxy has cured, redrill holes in order to reinsert bolts.

Also, if you want the recessed area around bolts smoothed, do not use just epoxy or epoxy paste with micro spheres, but use glass or carbon fibers. And again not just micro fibers like in the West System Can, but longer fibers of at least 1/2 " or longer. That increases strength of repair substantially.

When using longer strands of fibers the initial repair will look ugly! It will need to faired smoothe and immediate area repainted. It can be made to look good and it will be safe.

Ed K

 

[treeman]

Thank you for all the great opinions and advice. I have just begun my sailing hobby and this forum has been a wealth of help. The contribution of the members is AMAZING!

I will be covering and storing my boat away for the winter now. In the Spring I will be giving the chain plates some careful attention. (and then probably replacing the windows which have cracked at the screw holes and started leaking into the cabin, ho hum)

Have a great thanksgiving!

-Dan

 

[estopa]

I like how you constructed the chain plate setup on your 222. Did you use the O day 25 chainplate all the way through the hull where you now have it attached to the stays and welded a plate on top of it?

 

[Mich222]

I like how you constructed the chain plate setup on your 222. Did you use the O day 25 chainplate all the way through the hull where you now have it attached to the stays and welded a plate on top of it?

estopa:
Yes- Oday 25 chainplate is mounted through deck. The chainplate cover is welded to Oday 25 chainplate.

 

[RichBone]

Personally, I don't like the idea of putting a weld all the way around the chainplate. Too much chance of causing a weakness in the chainplate that could fracture.

Rich

 

[Joe11688]

Personally, I don't like the idea of putting a weld all the way around the chainplate. Too much chance of causing a weakness in the chainplate that could fracture.

Rich

When I first encountered problems with my stock O'Day 222 chainplates I talked to Rudy about a better solution and he sold me the O'Day 25 chainplates. Then I had problems with water intrusion around these chainplates, so I went back to him and he gave me the idea of having plates made up and welded to the O'Day 25 chainplates with holes for bolts going through the deck.
With the plates welded and caulking under them, there's no chance of water intrusion. Also with the plates bolted through the deck, I'm adding more reinforcement to the O'Day 25 chainplates which are attached to my bulkhead. I don't know Rich. It sounded plausible to me. I no longer have any leaks and my O'Day 25 chainplates are solid. Although my bulkhead is flimsy, I have my chainplates also bolted to oak boards which are also bolted to my settees on both sides.

With that said though, it's quite possible that if a guy goes out and buys an O'Day 222 with stock chainplates he is probably not likely to encounter any problems with the chainplates provided that he stays with 1/8" stays and has no water intrusion that can weaken the bulkhead. My advice to anyone is to periodically check the "L" brackets that hold the stock chainplates to the bulkhead for cracks at the bend. If an "L" bracket breaks, I would just replace the "L" brackets with something similar but stronger and don't even mess with the chainplates if they are OK.
I still insist that my chainplate problem was caused by over sized stay replacement by a rigger at Rig-Rite. My mast problem near the hinge plate was caused by him also. I'm pulling my hair out trying to come up with a solution for that.
Joe

 

[Mich222]

Personally, I don't like the idea of putting a weld all the way around the chainplate. Too much chance of causing a weakness in the chainplate that could fracture.

Rich

Rich: Good Information - Thank you. Are you saying I should change chainplates out now , or is there an inspection I can do, or could I make it part of regular maintenance/ prelaunch to inspect for sign of cracks/ stress/ fracturing, or would this all of a sudden fracture with no noticable signs of impending fracture? or other??

 

[Joe11688]

Personally, I don't like the idea of putting a weld all the way around the chainplate. Too much chance of causing a weakness in the chainplate that could fracture.

Rich

Rich,
Have you ever taken a close look at your bow stem chainplate?
It is put together and welded up in the same way as my chainplates.

Mich,
Yours is too. Granted, if any of the stays receive a strong sharp blow, something is going to give but I don't believe that a weld is going break of it's own accord. I don't believe that for one minute.

At our club, we have concrete mooring blocks with steel straps welded together on the outside of each block. One of our members attached an 11' x 1-1/8" Navy chain to the top of each block by welding the link to the steel strap. That was over ten years ago and they are still holding our boats in the mooring field. The harbor master OKed it before we set these blocks out in the mooring field. We raise these blocks every year to check the chains and turnbuckles.

 

[RichBone]

Good point Joe, but the transverse weld on the stem head is only on one side and the other weld runs along the length of the tang forming a gusseted piece. It's just me, I'm not comfortable with just a transverse weld all the way around the chainplate. Needless to say, in any case a good welder is essential.

Mich222- I'm not familiar with the 222 chainplates but simplicity of the 25's chainplates over the 222's would make them a better choice.

Rich

 

[Joe11688]

Good point Joe, but the transverse weld on the stem head is only on one side and the other weld runs along the length of the tang forming a gusseted piece. It's just me, I'm not comfortable with just a transverse weld all the way around the chainplate. Needless to say, in any case a good welder is essential.

Mich222- I'm not familiar with the 222 chainplates but simplicity of the 25's chainplates over the 222's would make them a better choice.

Rich

I agree with you. A good welder is essential. I took my boat to a marine fabrication shop on the river. These guys were building towers on flybridge cruisers. Singer Billy Joel had been storing two of his boats at this boatyard. I was surprised to learn that the place went belly up this past summer. The bank took them over and auctioned the property off this past month. They had millions of dollars tied up in that place along with their other shop up the Cape. Too bad.