Worth the Cutter Rig?

[SailorElliot]

Hello,

I was wondering if it is worth paying a grand or so to install an inner forestay and system for dual headsails for both upwind and downwind (poled out on both sides without the main). Will it give me an extra knot or more? I have a genneker but it isn't the best for upwind I've found as it just heels the boat without any speed (possibly with bad trimming, but it wasn't sheeted in all the way).

Elliot

 

[sail sfbay]

Appraent;y the Flicka came standard as a masthead sloop with an optional staysail stay Flicka (sailingmagazine.net). However, there are lots of considerations as discussed in this thread When changing a sloop into a cutter | SailNet Community

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Hello,

I was wondering if it is worth paying a grand or so to install an inner forestay and system for dual headsails for both upwind and downwind (poled out on both sides without the main). Will it give me an extra knot or more? I have a genneker but it isn't the best for upwind I've found as it just heels the boat without any speed (possibly with bad trimming, but it wasn't sheeted in all the way).

Elliot

No, it won't provide any more speed. It will give you more heavy weather options. That would be the purpose. Your gennaker is made for downwind sailing. It won't serve any purpose upwind. Odd questions about speed for such a slow boat! It's a great boat, but it was never intended for speed!

 

[dlochner]

The big advantage for a twin headsail approach is stability. The 2 sails, when poled out, keep the boat moving straight and reduce rolling.

 

[SailorElliot]

No, it won't provide any more speed. It will give you more heavy weather options. That would be the purpose. Your gennaker is made for downwind sailing. It won't serve any purpose upwind. Odd questions about speed for such a slow boat! It's a great boat, but it was never intended for speed!

Thank you! I heard that gennekers could also be used upwind, not trying that again . I absolutely love the boat, but can barely make a 30 nm passage in all of daylight under full throttle and sail!

 

[PaulK]

Flickas are for people who enjoy the trip more than getting to the destination. Is the bottom clean? That might extend your daylight cruising range.

 

[SailorElliot]

Flickas are for people who enjoy the trip more than getting to the destination. Is the bottom clean? That might extend your daylight cruising range.

They bottom is incredibly not clean, we've been waiting the whole year for a good time to haul her out! We don't know when the owner before hauled her out, but we did get most barnacles cleaned off when we got her surveyed at the time of buying.

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

A clean bottom will do more to increase speed than almost anything else.

Like with women, some boats are built for speed; others for comfort. You can't have everything...

 

[jssailem]

You can't have everything...

Boats are a compromise on the water.

• Comfort or Speed
• Affordable or use the kids college fund
• Sail the wind or fire up the 250hp outboards

Planning to sail the trade winds to Hawaii sure you see value in a cutter rig. Not so much for speed but options to manage ocean cruising weather.

Planning to coastal cruise from San Francisco to Cabo maybe not so much return on your purchase.

Your best investment will be in the newness and quality of your sails and the cleanness of your hull.

As others have stated the Flicka does not so much get you where you want to go first, but it gets you there when others might not arrive.

 

[jon hansen]

a sail that is not trimmed properly creates drag. drag slows the boat and makes it heel more. it also disrupts the air flow to the next sail in line.

a genniker is for off wind sailing only. roll it up to a smaller size and it is awful in shape. it is for off the wind when the app wind is reduced as you are going with the wind. when you are hard on the wind, the app wind is increased and a smaller sail properly cut will help you sail the vessel to weather.

a sail is either pulling or dragging. drag is a big bummer.

on your vessel the set up is for you to use the smaller jib for beating to weather and the bigger jib to sail off the wind.

yes you can use both head sails wing on wing in a heavy blow down wind. prolly won't much out side of trade winds.

yes you can fly all three sails on a reach. prolly won't much being the keeping the air flow on the slots between the sails clean is an art form.

the smaller inside jib will be heavier cloth for the stronger app winds. the genniker will be a lighter cloth with the lesser app winds.

with a dirty bottom it is all mute. you are trying to sail a 4 barrel raft/ not much going to happen.

most modern cruisers do not sail to weather if they can help it. they will wait for the wind to change or turn on the iron jib. if that's you? why get the jib. the jib will be good in higher winds for reaching. a lot of modern cruisers will not sail in higher winds because ---------------------.
you fill in the blanks.

me, i would get the jib in a heart beat.

i sail to weather every time. i have my vessels set up to do such. it's a hoot to be able to drive to weather with skill.
in 62 years of sailing i have not gone five mile with the autopilot on. we drive the boat.
i carry 5 jibs, no roller reefing on my vessel.
1 Asail and 2 spinnakers and a crew to fly them all.

we sail when the wind blows not just when the sun shines

.... and we have loads of wind to play with.



these are wind toys, just saying

 

[dlochner]

Thank you! I heard that gennekers could also be used upwind, not trying that again . I absolutely love the boat, but can barely make a 30 nm passage in all of daylight under full throttle and sail!

That sounds about right. In optimal conditions with a very clean bottom, good sails, and well trimmed sails you will see just over 5 knots. For passage planning figure on maybe 4 knots.

Because the boat is inherently slow because of its size and design paying attention to additional factors, sail trim, sail condition, weight/load, and hull condition is important as is planning the passage to take advantage of any tidal or ocean current.

There are several factors that contribute to hull speed, waterline length and wave making resistance are the biggest factors. Wave making resistance is the hulls ability to move through water without making a wave, boxy hulls have make waves, long slender hulls make smaller waves. The Flicka has a short waterline and its hull shape is not one that will slip through the water easily.

 

[Richard19068]

They bottom is incredibly not clean, we've been waiting the whole year for a good time to haul her out! We don't know when the owner before hauled her out, but we did get most barnacles cleaned off when we got her surveyed at the time of buying.

I would suggest hiring a diver to clean your bottom (and check your zincs). Crud grows quickly here even with decent bottom paint.
You can web search hull cleaning marina del rey .

 

[twistedskipper]

Technically, adding a staysail to a sloop makes it a staysail sloop, not a cutter. A cutter has the mast set farther aft than a sloop and therefore has a larger foretriangle.

 

[Alan Gomes]

They bottom is incredibly not clean, we've been waiting the whole year for a good time to haul her out! We don't know when the owner before hauled her out, but we did get most barnacles cleaned off when we got her surveyed at the time of buying.

Granted that you are in Marina Del Rey, you need to hire a diver to clean the bottom *monthly* if you are not already doing so.

 

[jssailem]

@SailorElliot
Sail design and sail trim are what lend your boat speed.

Quantum shares tips on improving your sail trim skills. Here is one of there tip messages

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Start by easing until both telltales on both sides of the sail are streaming aft. Here’s a look at what you’re likely to see and how to handle it:

BOTH HANGING STRAIGHT DOWN: If both telltales are hanging straight down you’re trimmed in too far and the air isn’t getting around the sail effectively – ease out slowly. LEEWARD FLOWING AFT, WEATHER DANCING: If you ease too far the leeward telltale will flow, but the inside (weather) telltale will lift up. Trim in a bit more to get them both flowing straight aft. BOTH FLOWING AFT: If you’re in the sweet spot, both should flow straight back.

Get the top telltales to flow on the headsail. Adjust the lead position outboard and slightly forward to help the sheet pull down on the clew and close down the top sections of the sail. On a reach you have to compromise; you'll never get all three sets of telltales flying at the same time. Trim the middle of the sail perfectly. Get the middle telltales flying straight aft, allow the top inside telltale to lift some, and have the bottom outside telltale start to hang straight down - indicating stalled flow. When it comes to trimming the main off the wind the standard rule applies: let it out until it luffs along the leading edge, then trim in just enough to stop. Generally it is always best to have the top of the sail luff just a little ahead of the bottom. When in doubt it is better to have the lead too far aft than too far forward. Letting the foot flatten out and the top twist off allows you to sheet the sail harder without stalling. The game upwind is to try to sheet the sail as hard as possible without killing all boat speed. Keep in mind the golden rule, “speed first, then point.” LEARN MORE​ Get to a vantage point to see the telltales. For maximum power, the telltales need to stream straight aft. If the outside telltale spins or sags straight down, head up. If the inside telltale lifts, bear off. In general, it is better to ride the inside telltales, having them just on the verge of lifting. In heavy breeze, feather, don’t fight. Sail a constant angle of heel letting the boat come up in the puffs and bearing off to add heel in the lulls. ​ Upwind the mainsheet—and sometimes the vang—takes over the job of controlling twist. LIGHT AIR: In light air, make sure there is flow off the back of the sail by having all the telltales flowing. More twist makes it easier for the boat to accelerate. MEDIUM AIR: Trim as hard as you can without slowing the boat down below target speed. The top telltale may be stalled a lot of the time. HEAVY AIR: Keep the boat on her feet. Ease the mainsheet to control heel and helm. The telltales will always be streaming, but they are no longer the issue. Trimming and visual cues from your telltales are a lot to digest and think about while sailing. Pick a section to practice during your next sail and test it out. Experiment with easing out and trimming in, as well as adjusting cars or vang. Pay attention to how things change, not only how the boat sails, but also how the telltales change. As you practice, reading your telltales and sail trim will become second nature.

 

[SailorElliot]

Thank you! I misunderstood, sorry, I do get a diver every month but haven't painted the bottom in years. Is it worth getting a maybe 150% genoa and rigging a maybe 90% jib on the inner forestay? This site looks pretty good.

 

[dlochner]

Thank you! I misunderstood, sorry, I do get a diver every month but haven't painted the bottom in years. Is it worth getting a maybe 150% genoa and rigging a maybe 90% jib on the inner forestay? This site looks pretty good.

Can't speak about Peak Sails as I know nothing about them.

Having both sails will help with light wind sailing speed, however the big advantage will come from increased flexibility in sail plan. The boat will sail best and most comfortably when the sail area matches the wind and sea conditions. Having 3 sails to work with increases the options.

When the wind is up, put the 150 away and sail on the stay sail and reefed main. This will give you better performance and a more comfortable ride than a reefed 150 and reefed main. Do some research on cutter rigged boats and sail combinations.

 

[sail sfbay]

......... This site looks pretty good.

I had a asymmetrical spinnaker manufactured by Peak Sails............and in my opinion they offer good quality and value for money.

 

[SailorElliot]

I'm having a rigger come early January to hopefully replace lots of my rigging so I'm guessing he could help me with my inner forestay and sail configuration. I think I'll order the 150% soon.

 

[jssailem]

I think I'll order the 150% soon.

New sails make your boat feel new.
Better to order and enjoy than to order then sell the boat.

It is a little like carpet in a house. We buy new carpet to sell a house and never have the opportunity to enjoy it.

Enjoy your sails. It is the journey not the speed to get to the destination.