Winterizing Questions

[Gunni]

I'm going to do my own winterization this year. After cleaning up the boat boy's spills and mess for the last few years, I figure I can do this better. I also want to avoid dumping gallons of antifreeze in my tanks and hot water heater. Read Maine Sail's excellent well illustrated treatise on winterization but I still have a few questions:

1. Winterizing the heat pumps. Have two, fore and aft. They utilize a single seawater pump midships. Can I simply disconnect the raw-water pickup from the thru-hull barb, bring the hose above the pump, stuff it with a funnel/drill pump and winterize both heat pumps, or do I have to do each heat pump separately?
2. Winterizing the freshwater. Do I open faucets and valves closest to the freshwater pump and start bleeding antifreeze, or do I start bleeding at the far ends of the boat (forward head, swim platform shower)?
3. Winterizing the head. I have Jabsco traditional manual pump heads. I plan to disconnect the raw water intake, drop it into bottle of AF and pump it through. Then drop some AF in the bowl. Sound right?

After that it is just a bunch of shower/reefer sumps and the engines (Aux and Gen.) I always do my engine winterizations myself.

Feel free to school me on all the tips and shortcuts. Ever since I found out how ugly this "non-toxic" AF is to the Bay I'm trying to limit the AF discharge. Hopefully I can get it down to 15 gallons of glycol or less going into the water.


Thanks,
Gunni.

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

Pull the heat pump(s) intake hose off the thru hull and put it in a gallon jug of antifreeze. Run the pumps until you get antifreeze at the discharge(s).
Pull the potable water pump off the manifold and place the intake to the pump in the antifreeze jug and run the pump to each faucet/shower until antifreeze comes out - also serves to provide antifreeze the the shower sumps which should be run.
Do as you describe for the head(s).
Drain the water heater.
I do our boat with two heads, A/C and four water tanks with less than 3 gal total of antifreeze.

 

[navigator97]

Gunni, After you run the fresh Water tank dry you can disconnect the in line & out line at the water heater. Rig up a "by-pass" to connect the in line TO the out line. Then when you put the NTAF into the plumbing and run it out of all fawcets, you are not putting a lot of it into the water heater. When I drain water out of the water heater I put a length of heavy vinyl tubing on to the "cold in" fitting and put the other end into a bucket. I put another heavy vinyl tubing onto the "hot out" fitting and connect the other end to my dinghy air foot pump. That lets me pump air into the water heater which forces water out into the bucket (remember that you have about 6 gallons of water in it. When you cant pump anymore water out, then open the little drain petcock at the bottom and drain any remaining water. Then put in about a quart or two of NTAF into the water heater thru one of the vinyl tubing using a funnel. The plumbing should now be done. The "by-pass just stays in place until the spring when you run the main water pump to drain all of the NTAF out thru all of the fawcets. I usually put about a half gallon of NTAF into the Jabsco bowl and pump it thru into the holding tank. I then add a little more to the bowl. When on the hard, I open all sea cocks to drain out any standing sea water in their lines. That has all been working for me for a lot of years.

 

[petersea]

if you are concerned about using antifreeze you can use air pressure to blow all your plumbing lines clear of any water. some shop vacs and even regular vacumes have a reverse feature that will blow air. If there is no water nothing can freeze I would back it up with some antifreeze also but is not needed unless you have some low spots that may not blow out completely. As already recommened bypass and drain hot water heater, no anti freeze needed at all for that. shop vac can be used to drain all sumps etc as well. I DO NOT recomend this method for engine or generator.

 

[Bill Roosa]

Clearing the lines with air is much preferred to dumping the pink stuff in. One it is cheaper, two it is faster once you get the right plumbing fittings from Home Depot (they are reusable for next season too), three, you don't have to flush the system of the pink stuff in the spring just fill, prime and go, most importantly you don't get that nasty taste till around July cause you didn't take the time to flush the pink stuff out correctly.
I use a plastic tube about ten feet long and a fitting that connects the tube to the normal boat plumbing. If you are clearing the lines on a heat pump then you will probably need a different fitting for that. After disconnecting the line between the tank selector valves and the water pump I create a siphon to the bilges to drain each tank in turn. Once the tanks are dry I connect to the water pump output lines and open the farthest cold water faucet and blow till it is clear, open the other faucets cold lines for a moment to let the water move into the supply line, close and blow till no water comes out the far faucet. Repeat the same procedure for the hot water lines. Note the faucet that has the longest run from the pump will most likely be a different on for hot and cold circuits. Don’t forget about the washdown shower on the stern. I always disconnect the hot water lines and crack the drain just to make sure all the water is out.

 

[Bill Roosa]

of the hot water heater.
need that second cup of coffee

 

[Gunni]

I had a bad experience using air to blow water lines clear a few years ago in our mountain cabin. Even though it appeared that all water was gone, some valves still had enough moisture in them to freeze, swell and become damaged. I'm going to use air to purge the water lines and then follow that with AF- if it comes out undiluted, I will have a better idea what works on this boat. Navigator, I don't think AF in the head bowl gets across the pump diaphragm to the water supply side of the pump. Not really sure however.

The aux and gen engines use nearly 10 gals total AF to fill their heat exchanger/muffler systems. And all of that goes overboard eventually.

Thanks all!

 

[sailingseadragon]

Gunni,

Some have had problems with blowing the lines and not using the “pink stuff” but I have been using this approach for 5 years now with great results. I do not know if I have just been lucky or that the weather is just not that harsh on the Chesapeake Bay. My approach is pretty low tech and takes advantage of the dinghy pump that is on board.

http://www.sailingseadragon.com/winterize.htm

Good luck,
Garner

 

[Scott T-Bird]

I've also never understood the need to use antifreeze in water lines or the head. It's a lot different than a house with rigid copper lines running all over the place. In those instances, ice can't expand without breaking something because it is confined within segments of pipe that freeze up.

The small puddles of water that end up in the low spots in flexible containers such as plastic lines isn't going to cause any damage. Any water in the tanks will only expand upward and won't cause any damage (think of an ice cube tray).

Irrigation lines all over the north are simply blown out and left for the winter because they are only a few inches below the grass, rarely with any ill-consequences. I don't think anybody fills irrigation pipes with antifreeze!

 

[Bill Roosa]

I agree with T-Bird, if you only have small water pockets with room on either end to expand then you will not have problems. A mostly full tank that freezes solid is a different situation though and may break the tank. A thin layer of water will just fold up and not be able to develope much force. A thick layer of water will freeze on the top first and act like a lid to the water below. The water below then does not have any place to go and could crack the tank. This is more of a problem for tanks with all vertical sides. If you have one side that is at an angle then the whole thing is like an ice cube tray, provided the tank is not full.
FWIW.

 

[Maine Sail]

I've also never understood the need to use antifreeze in water lines or the head. It's a lot different than a house with rigid copper lines running all over the place. In those instances, ice can't expand without breaking something because it is confined within segments of pipe that freeze up.

The small puddles of water that end up in the low spots in flexible containers such as plastic lines isn't going to cause any damage. Any water in the tanks will only expand upward and won't cause any damage (think of an ice cube tray).

Irrigation lines all over the north are simply blown out and left for the winter because they are only a few inches below the grass, rarely with any ill-consequences. I don't think anybody fills irrigation pipes with antifreeze!

Scott,

If your boat is simple blowing out the lines can work, but it does not work on all boats. Not all boats have flexible PVC hose and low spots with plastic fittings or brass fittings can still crack and split. Our boat does not lend well to blowing out, which I would prefer, so I suck in two gallons of AF and purge it in the spring..

The guys blowing out irrigation systems up this way are using gas powered Ingersol Rand trailer towed compressors that move a ton of air. They also let it run for a good 20-25 minutes to fully dry the lines not just blow the majority out. My neighbors of three sides have irrigation systems and we had one at our old house.. Their compressors are a little different than a portable nail gun compressor that is easy to get down a dock. They also do have freeze issues.. My buddy Darren owns a large irrigation & landscape company in Steamboat, CO. Even out there where it gets less cold then here, he deals with some irrigation system freeze ups each spring, and he has a monster compressor.. Some boats can be blown some will still pop fittings. The only way to know is to try it once...

We have boats yards up here that will ask you to sign a waiver if you request to be blown out vs. having AF put in...

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Freezing water ...

My pool is oval shaped and stands almost 5' high with vertical sides and left full of water every winter. It freezes at least 2' thick on top and I can tell that during cold spells, the water is frozen all the way down along the sides. With the cover on it, it doesn't thaw out entirely until the end of April for a normal winter. It is very flimsy, thin aluminum with a vinyl lining, and nothing ever goes wrong. Water has to be confined when frozen and the confining materials have to be rigid, like metal or glass all the way around, for it to do any damage.

I have cracked a very expensive V-8 engine block on one occasion so I do have some respect for the problem!

Oh, I solved the problem a few years ago by taking the tank and the water lines out of the boat. I haven't replaced them yet ...

Come to think of it ... where Gunni is located, is there really a need for winterization? I know they get the occasional snow storm, but that's the south, don't they saill all year round down there?

 

[Dan Johnson]

Hey Scott...

take a look at the map...Annapolis isn't that far south of you that it doesn't get single digit temps in a bad winter. One year when I lived near there, the entire northern Bay froze over. Guys were driving VW's from "Nap to the eastern shore and avoiding the bridge tolls!

Yes, winterization is a necessary chore for those of us on the Bay, even as far south as Norfolk!

 

[Gunni]

Some boats can be blown some will still pop fittings. The only way to know is to try it once...

I'll gladly suffer glycol residue in my plumbing to avoid even the possibility of a plumbing problem. In the spring I put about 15 gallons of water in the tanks and run that through the system, using it to clean the boat. Do that 3 times and I'm ready to go for the season. We don't drink our tank water.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Winter in Maryland??!!

Waaayy back in 1996, my buddy and I were driving home from Cape Hatteras in early April (about the 1st week). We just finished our usual early April windsurfing trip to the east coast mecca but we had been skunked for wind over the last few days. Driving over the Bay Bridge from Cape Henry to Cape Charles we saw whitecaps on the water so we sneaked into a hotel parking lot near the bay and rigged up for a 2-hour session on the bay. It was cold but we had our semi-drys and everything was great!

Eventually we packed up and started driving home once again with big sh!t-eating grins over our unexpected score. Barely more than an hour later we reached southern Maryland in a blizzard and by the time we reached Delaware the snow was about 1' deep! That was the icing on the cake!

 

[petersea]

Gunni, Just another thougth on the engine and generator is to drain the seawater side of them before putting in antifreeze. Should help to lessen the "dulition" and may save a couple of gallons of the pink stuff. Also empty the mufflers if they have a drain. Ten gallons seams like a lot so maybe you could get down to six by draining first. Also on the a/c units if they are installed correctly they should be self draining. Check owners manual as the actual unit is self draining if the plumbing to them is done correctly so then blowing out the lines and using a shop vac to empty strainers should empty the system, just check and see how your system is set up and especialy check the manifold where the seawater splits to both units. Once you are on land (assumes you haul out for winter) open the thurhulls to drain any residual water between thurhull and strainer. . Just a thought...........

 

[Gunni]

Thanks Peter, she's a big ol' boat and the engines have to be winterized while afloat. Some nut tried to do so while on jackstands a few years ago and the results were ugly. There is no draining of the system and mufflers. My heat pump system is built to ABYC standards, but I don't trust the raw water pump to properly drain out under gravity.

 

[Ed H]

I'll gladly suffer glycol residue in my plumbing to avoid even the possibility of a plumbing problem. .

I am with you 100%.

 

[petersea]

Thanks Peter, she's a big ol' boat and the engines have to be winterized while afloat. Some nut tried to do so while on jackstands a few years ago and the results were ugly. There is no draining of the system and mufflers. My heat pump system is built to ABYC standards, but I don't trust the raw water pump to properly drain out under gravity.

Draining the seawater side of the engine and generator and mufflers can be done in the water..I do mine in the water no problem. Check engine manaul for seawater drain locations and mufflers may or may not have a drain but it is very doable while in water.