Wing Keel starting upwind (very light) against the tide

[jepomer]

I have experienced this situation over the past few years and assumed it was my own skill set, but I'm thinking that maybe the wing keel is acting more like a sea anchor. The race was in Boston Outer Harbor anchorage area just west of Deer Island Light going past Graves Light House for a 12 NM course.

SITUATION:
• Starting Gate is properly orientated and sized for the number of boats that would be starting - a pursuit race this past Saturday
• Incoming tide flows 1-2 knots in the channel next to and perpendicular the start gate, so the tidal current was against the intended forward motion
• Wind was very light, mostly 1-2 knots at the starting line. It was about 5+ knots earlier. Wind was light but sufficient outside of the Harbor past Deer Island Light.

PROBLEM:
• I could not find an angle to approach the starting line and cross it. I got to the line once but the wind died and I drifted back without fully crossing the line. I worked at this for 45 minutes before giving up. All of the other boats had started by then.
• All other boats had difficulty crossing but most were successful. All were fin keeled boats except for one trimaran.
• My Capri 22 was the smallest with the trimaran being just a bit longer at 22.5'

This situation has happened a few times before. Each time we were trying to start against the tidal current with light winds. Two years ago I thought it was due to a fouled bottom (probably didn't help) but the hull is clean this time. I have sailed several times in low winds and had no problems.

I am beginning to think that in certain situations, the wing keel can actually act more like a sea anchor in the very light wind.

QUESTION:
Does anyone have any experience with this type of situation?

What are your thoughts as to how to get past over the start line?

~ John
"Ophelia"

 

[HERSH]

What were the PHRF #'s of the successful boats? I bet they were significantly lower.
If you had a 45 degree tack angle you would have to a hull speed of 1.4kts just to overcome a 1 kt. current. That being rather tough with only 2 kts of wind.

You do not stand a chance against significantly faster boats ( lower PHRF's) in current.

Had a slow race today in current ( Hudson River) 4 boats finished within about 3 minutes of each other for a 2 mile 3hr race. PHRF's from about 190 to 228 ( mine). One boat had a 141 PHRF and he finished in 1.5 hrs. !

Hershey

 

[jepomer]

The other boats had lower PHRF ratings. My Capri is rated 228. Only a Pearson 365 Sloop was rated slower at 231. He was DNF also. The next faster JAM boat was a Catalina 30 rated at 207 and finished 7th of 13 (3 DNF, 1 DNC). The others have ratings from 111 to 180. The Spinnaker fleet had ratings from 30 to 132. I've attached the results which also lists the boat types.

The start line was unfortunately in the current with very light wind during that time. Once I got through the start line, I planned on tacking toward Deer Island (as all the other boats did) and get out of the current. But during each approach to the start line, the current would drift me back. I did have to turn to avoid other boats while on a good port tack.

I'm just suspicious that this is one of the few situations that the wing keel is a disadvantage. I've done well in light winds this season. This was the first time the current was against me in a light wind.

 

[HERSH]

Too wide a PHRF spread. I have the same problem here. PHRF recommends spreads o 20 secs/mile MAX.

If you are paying an entrance fee, then you are just contributing to the fast boat trophy fund :-(
But if it was for a "good cause": and most of the $$ went to that cause -- then consider your race a success.

If you look at the finishing order, I bet the average PHRF of top 50% were lower then the average PHRF of the bottom 50%.

PHRF Time on Distance does not work in areas with current because the distance sailed over the water is not the same a the distance sailed over the ground below your boat.


Hershey

 

[HERSH]

The PHRF number that was assigned to you is the same as I have.

Here is how they figured mine.

JAM
Base 213
wisker pole = "J" + 6
Crew weight ( shorthanded) + 3
141% genoa + 3

hershey

 

[jepomer]

The PHRF number that was assigned to you is the same as I have.

Here is how they figured mine.

JAM
Base 213
wisker pole = "J" + 6
Crew weight ( shorthanded) + 3
141% genoa + 3

hershey

Interesting how they calculate the PHRF yet get to the same number:
http://www.phrfne.org/page/handicapping ... djustments

I do have 265 lbs of batteries where the cooler would be. That makes up for us being short-handed (usually my wife and me). If we start winning races, I'm sure someone might comment about it. We are still a ways from that!

BASE:
CAPRI 22 WK CATALINA 213

ADJUSTMENTS:
Largest Lp 135% or less +3 (Cruising Canvas handicap only)
RECREATIONAL ADJUSTMENT +6
• Limited inventory, above deck jib roller furling, polyester, pentex, or mylar only in working sails, no exotic sail materials such as kevlar,
spectra, technora, etc..
• A maximum of:
• One nylon spinnaker
• One jib with Lp > 110%
• One jib with Lp =< 110%
• Heavy weather jibs and storm sails are allowed. Staysails are allowed if the boat has a true cutter rig and the staysail is used upwind.
• Staysails are allowed if they are only used as part of the heavy weather/storm sail configuration.

I'm not a hard-core racer. I use the racing as practice and training for general sailing. But I do enjoy being around all of the sailboats and doing our best. Even on a poor showing, we still get to spend time out on the water. I have noticed how much better our sailing skills have gotten.

But I still find things that don't work well and then focus on them. The latest is trying to pass through a fixed gateway against the tide with a very light wind. Going to practice that...

 

[SailSmith]

265Lbs of Battery! Light air calls for light boats. If the main field is getting across the line I dont think its your Wing Keel. I did a race yesterday upwind in 2kts of air and won with my wing keel. I sailed by myself and with little to no weight on board since I knew it would be a light day. Seems you either need to sacrafice some weight or maybe invest in some new sails. You may be trimming well but if you sails are all stretched and bagged out then you arent getting much lift out of them. I deal with 24ft tides where im at in Eastport Me and have spent many of hours sailing up wind but backwards down the river. Its just part of it as we all know. Stick with it and good luck. One last thing, I notice many boats trying to point to high in the light stuff trying to fight the tide, remember that more often than not greater distance at greater speed is almost alwasy better than trying to point to high. Good luck and dont give up.

 

[shnool]

265Lbs of Battery!

we need a like button. Yep... extra lead in the boat, isn't going to help, but not enough wind to start, the fin keel capri wouldn't have started either.

 

[HERSH]

I would like to see the final results.

As I predicted the lower PHRF boats on the average finished in the top.

https://www.regattaman.com/results.php? ... t_page.php

Hershey

 

[sinnettc]

265Lbs of Battery!

we need a like button. Yep... extra lead in the boat, isn't going to help, but not enough wind to start, the fin keel capri wouldn't have started either.

That's why some of us have tall rigs.

Seriously though, I've tried sailing upwind on the Columbia River and it can be a futile effort. Running down river and making the turn at the buoy, with a bunch of other boats that have essentially stopped there due to turning up river, is quite . . . exciting. :shock:

 

[HERSH]

Look at the results. Especially the spinnaker fleet. Lowest PHRF ( 30) 1st. and the finishes continued that way. 2nd. lowet PHRF (72) second. 3rd. lowest PHRF (114) 3rd. 4th ..... (132)

Anybody who races in a place with a current, If your PHRF is way higher then the lowest PHRF, you do not stand a chance.

Hershey.

 

[jepomer]

Too wide a PHRF spread. I have the same problem here. PHRF recommends spreads o 20 secs/mile MAX.

If you are paying an entrance fee, then you are just contributing to the fast boat trophy fund :-(
But if it was for a "good cause": and most of the $$ went to that cause -- then consider your race a success.

Hershey

The race was part of our club's Make-A-Wish Regatta. So the majority of the proceeds go to charity — not the fast boat trophy fund — so it was a success.

When enough boats sail, things are broken down into several classes. On this weekend we also host several One Design races so the Pursuit Fleet was a bit smaller than usual.

 

[jepomer]

265Lbs of Battery! Light air calls for light boats. If the main field is getting across the line I dont think its your Wing Keel. I did a race yesterday upwind in 2kts of air and won with my wing keel. I sailed by myself and with little to no weight on board since I knew it would be a light day. Seems you either need to sacrafice some weight or maybe invest in some new sails. You may be trimming well but if you sails are all stretched and bagged out then you arent getting much lift out of them. I deal with 24ft tides where im at in Eastport Me and have spent many of hours sailing up wind but backwards down the river. Its just part of it as we all know. Stick with it and good luck. One last thing, I notice many boats trying to point to high in the light stuff trying to fight the tide, remember that more often than not greater distance at greater speed is almost alwasy better than trying to point to high. Good luck and dont give up.

Please note that I am not a hard-core racer. I look at racing as a way to practice my skills to get "craft, cargo, and crew".

Also since the auxiliary drive is electric, I need the batteries. We object to the noise and smell of an internal combustion engine for this activity staying with wind and solar power only — yes the batteries are charged by solar panels while on a mooring. The batteries are mounted low over the keel contributing to ballast and righting motion.

Unfortunately, it is not a easy thing to remove the batteries simply for a light air race. Good thing I am not a hard-core racer!

The Ullman sails were new last summer and were lightly used (I travelled for work a lot last summer and missed several weekends out). Last month in the Moon Chase Race (Boston to Gloucester) we had very light winds. I kept up with the Catalina 30 (Iphigenia - PHRF 207) for the first few hours.

Boston Harbor has 10-12 foot tides.

 

[jepomer]

Look at the results. Especially the spinnaker fleet. Lowest PHRF ( 30) 1st. and the finishes continued that way. 2nd. lowet PHRF (72) second. 3rd. lowest PHRF (114) 3rd. 4th ..... (132)

Anybody who races in a place with a current, If your PHRF is way higher then the lowest PHRF, you do not stand a chance.

Hershey.

I didn't expect to take first place. I simply wanted to participate and try to do my best.

Unfortunately, we never got over the starting line. We got up to it several times trying different tacks. We tried to copy the successful boats. I even motored "close" to the line to see if that would help (nope)!

A tall rig would not be appropriate for this sailing area since we are primarily day sailors who join in the regattas for fun. The winds are typically 10-15 knots. There are only a few times when the tall rig might be an advantage. Besides I already own this boat.

---

I was looking at the GPS tracks and reviewing the bottom contour. The start line was at the western edge of a deep anchoring area dredged to 50+ feet for large ships to anchor just outside of the main Presidents Road channel. With the tide coming in there would also be some upwelling adding another component to the differing forces.

I do look at this as more of a physics/vector math problem. There must be an effective angle to approach the start gate. that is what I am looking for discover.

How does one move a given "boat, crew, and cargo" easterly through a fixed width north-south opening (starting gate) with low wind (1-2 knots) from the east, tide current 1-2 knots from the east?

Brings me back to math class!

 

[shnool]

you don't unless your boat can sail at twice (or rather AT) the speed of wind. Regardless of the choice in batteries, weight, rig, keel, you'd need a faster boat.

Since others started, with much faster ratings, my guess is its strictly a matter of not having enough performance.

 

[jepomer]

you don't unless your boat can sail at twice (or rather AT) the speed of wind. Regardless of the choice in batteries, weight, rig, keel, you'd need a faster boat.

Since others started, with much faster ratings, my guess is its strictly a matter of not having enough performance.

This scenario has happened to me a few times over the years when trying to cross the starting line against the current going upwind. In other events the slower boats and less experienced sailors had the same problem. I am trying to figure out what is my skill and what is my boat's limitations.

But fortunately, I did pick up an orphaned Ranger 29 (another Mull design) last fall. The previous owner had disassembled the rigging and insides getting ready for a rebuild (it was his father's boat and he himself was a woodworker) when he died. It needs some work, but all of the excess weight from inside has already been removed! It will be another year before I have it ready for the water. I hope it will be as much fun as my Capri and give me more ability to sail in the open water versus hugging the coast.

 

[aviatorjames]

1 - 2 kts current
1 - 2 kts wind

...it's not the wing keel