wing keel conversion

[alfreddiaz]

Not saying I am going to convert my Cat 25 tall rig swing keel, but I would like to start compiling info on the costs. Even more, find who sells the kit and for how much. I am located in Pacific Northwest. So East Coast is out of the question.

Who out there owns a Cat 25 that they converted?

How much was it?

Where did you get it done?

Very important. What type of trailer conversions did you have to do to go from a swing keel to a wing keel?

Finally, how does it sail?

I have emailed Catalina Yachts and got nothing back. Catalina Direct no longer offers the kits.

Thanks.

 

[shemandr]

There could be a good reason Catalina Direct doesn't sell the kits anymore.

 

[Stu Jackson]

You should really ask here: http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=3

 

[alfreddiaz]

Good point. I just did post in on the Catalina forum site.
Thanks.

 

[jrowan]

I owned a C 25 & the main advantage of the swing keel was for trailerability & ease of sailing in shallow areas where you will naturally be loading & unloading the boat on & off said trailer. So why do you want to change what is considered the primary advantage of this design? I think any trailer sailor can tell you that 1. this boat was not designed to bear the load of a fixed keel as the keel trunk configuration is completely different from the reinforced load bearing points of a traditional keel sump.
2. & wing keel & the stainless steel keel bolts & associated structural reinforcement that it will require will cost quite a few thousand dollars, more then the boat is really worth.
3. You will have to buy or build a custom trailer to be able to load a wing keel, which is very difficult to trailer, as you have increased the center of gravity as the boat will now be 2.5 feet higher on the trailer bed.
4. The C 25 performs well for her size as a swing keel model, so what exactly are you gaining for all the expense & loss of practical trailerability?

If you are serious about wanting a wing keel, the sell your C 25 & buy a bigger boat that was designed as a fixed wing keel, which makes a lot more sense & is much more cost effective.

 

[alfreddiaz]

That is exactly why I am not sold on the idea. But I do want to research it. That is why I am looking for someone who has done this.

Mostly I will sail the inland Columbia River. But once a year I want to sail the Sound and in 2016 I am planning a trip to Catalina Island. I would tow it there.

Next year I plan to try out the boat on the San Juan Islands. And I was worried that the swing keel would clank around a lot in the heavy swells. But I won't know until I do it. And I have no intention of doing true blue water sailing. My boat wasn't made for that.

As I said, the most I would consider would be the Catalina Islands after I trailer the boat to Newport. Okay, so here are some things to consider.


(1) The market value on wings keels seems to be considerably higher. Catalina 25 and 27 wing keels. Or at least the owners are asking more. Not certain what price they agreed to.

(2) In a swing keel, the double birth beneath the cockpit is really a single birth because the keel raising and lowering device takes up too much space (in my opinion). Remove that and it becomes a lot more room. And I have two boys that would be able to then use it for a few more years. Swing or Wing, there is no way you are gonna fit to larger adults back there.

(3) Looking at a Wing Keel on a trailer and a Swing Keel on a trailer, they almost seem to ride at about the same height. And it's the same hull. So i don't think there would be that much of a conversion. maybe just raising the bunkers about six inches. Hence the question if anyone has done this, I would love to hear from them what type of modifications, if any, they did on their trailer.

So there you have it. I know people out there are going to want to respond by saying go with a fixed keel. But launching them can be a real pain. And when I launched my swing keel last spring, I didn't need the tongue extension and my tires barely got wet. And the rims stayed dry.

Honestly, I like my boat. But a wing keel with a trailer goes for a solid $3,000 more than a swing or fixed keel. So that is why I am looking at the pricing. Just seeing what the costs are. As for bolts, pretty certain a swing keel has through the hull hardware. I could be wrong. I will have mine out this fall and take a look for sure.

Like I said, I am not sold on the idea. But darn if they don't sell for more. And it doesn't hurt to know the costs.

Thanks.

Al

 

[cat30]

Years ago i switched from swing keel to wing keel after the swing keel trunk was damaged. I bought the keel from Catalina- it was shipped from California (when they were still there) with a bunch of boats sent to a dealer in my area so shipping was not bad.
I did the prep work on the boat- sanding bottom paint mostly- and the yard did the heavy lifting, positioning, drilling holes for the keel bolts, and gooping with 5200. The yard then adjusted my trailer which i had used for the swing keel- only needed to raise the bunks a couple inches- otherwise fit right on- the width between the bunks was good too. Launching was the same for the wing keel as the swing keel- off a launch ramp.
Sailing performance was good-

 

[alfreddiaz]

That's is what I figured with the trailer. As for sailing, others said while the swing keels do better upwind, the wing keels are slightly faster downwind. Did you find this to be true?

I find my 25 swing keel performs a lot better upwind and is kind of doggish downwind. But I am a novice sailer.

If you don't mind, I am curious what it cost, even though it was years ago. And if you consider it a break-even, loss or gain on total value of the boat. All my research shows the wing keels sell for considerably more.

Thanks. It was good to hear from someone who did the conversion.

Also, what year and size was your boat?

Thanks.

 

[cat30]

The cable on my 1977 Cat25 broke and the swing keel crashing down cracked the centerboard trunk- the insurance company would not pay for the repair which would have been several thousand dollars. I decided i could either throw the boat away or switch to a wing keel- insurance paid about a $thousand.
I think the cost was about $3,000 on a boat worth to me about $5,000- it was a very tough decision- i had a boat worth $0 (since it was leaking badly) or add the wing keel.
With the swing keel out of the way i was able to do the required fiberglass repair to the keel trunk before the yard put the wing keel on. The insurance was satisfied with the repair and installation of the new keel and continued coverage
I liked the feel of the boat with the wing keel- felt like a more solid boat. Sailing performance was good for me- if there was any difference it wasn't readily apparent to me- i didn't race it- i did cruise on it during the summer.
I sold the boat eventually for what i originally paid after about 15 years. The next owner used it about 2 years then donated the boat to the Sea Scouts in Maine.

 

[South Sagle Jim]

" Top
That's is what I figured with the trailer. As for sailing, others said while the swing keels do better upwind, the wing keels are slightly faster downwind. Did you find this to be true?

I find my 25 swing keel performs a lot better upwind and is kind of doggish downwind. But I am a novice sailer."

If doggish downwind with the swing keel might raising the keel some when going downwind keep speed up?

 

[Jackdaw]

You would only notice any difference between the sailing performance downwind if you have two boats (wing and swing) sailing side by side. The difference is that minimal. Are you using a spinnaker? Most boats sail 'sluggish' downwind without one.

Raising the keel will not change much, as it only swings back you are not reducing the wetted surface area. There is more frontal surface area when it is down true, but that is offset by the much better hydrodynamic shape in the down position that allows laminar flow. The heel is very un-hydrodynamic when in the up position and generates lots of drag.

Boats like the S2 7.9 that can vertically raise their keels out of the water benefit from doing that downwind.

 

[alfreddiaz]

Haven't used a spinnaker yet. I am very green. Last weekend I got my first training on one. And to be honest I find sailing effectively downwind a lot harder to do than sailing upwind. I do have a spinnaker and when the conditions and crew are right, I will give it a shot.

Thanks Jack

 

[South Sagle Jim]

Haven't used a spinnaker yet. I am very green. Last weekend I got my first training on one. And to be honest I find sailing effectively downwind a lot harder to do than sailing upwind. I do have a spinnaker and when the conditions and crew are right, I will give it a shot.

Thanks Jack

I am green too and just know enough so far to be dangerous. So I back it off when I get on a new boat. Began sailing in 1980 but still green. Been on board and helped deploy and sail the spinnaker. Learned about lifting the centerboard (daggerboard) on my Sea Snark 11 "Anarchy". Sailing the lateen rig down wind is easy on an 11 foot boat and lifting the daggerboard is the way to go downwind but be ready to jam it down. Its easy cuz its only about 26 inches long.