Windlass woes as a result of anchoring woes

[mermike]

I decided to add a windlass because the chain is getting to be a bit much to haul up. I'm in the process of installing a spurling pipe, as the anchor locker doesn't allow enough fall. I knew it was going to be a challenging project, and so far my expectations have been exceeded.

It was going OK at this point, but when i tried it the first time, the chain piled up and jammed in the windlass. This was without any line yet.

I decided to build a mock-up so I could thoroughly test it. I should have started with the mock-up.

Concept:

Measurements:

Test stand:

The motor at the exit of the spurling pipe pulls the chain and rode through. I had to add a delay relay to keep pulling while the windlass comes to a stop. The more I tested it, the more it would occasionally slip or stall and then the chain jams. If i add more pressure to the idler wheel, the motor stalls. I need to get it to operate 100% reliably, or I may as well not do it at all. It's not going well at the moment, but I shall prevail.

 

[PaulK]

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[mermike]

Fixed

 

[arf145]

That's a quality looking job and mock-up I believe you will indeed prevail.

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

A beautifully thought out and drawn layout. I like the motor at the end of the spurling pipe. Never did know the difference between a spurling pipe and a haws pipe and now I know. Can't say I feel any better for it though .

I really hate to piss on your cornflakes but ................... is there any chance you could substitute the heaviest wall 2" PVC tubing available for the spurlng tube rather than using SS ? I don't know how PVC electrical conduit compares to drainage PVC or ABS. I see a green thin walled PVC pipe in your fifth picture and a grey material which look thick and might do the job. Anything but SS.

First thing that happens is the SS tube goes after the zinc galvanizing on the chain because of the large galvanic difference. Relative areas between chain and SS I.D. don't help matters either. Once the zinc is partially gone, there's not much to protect the steel chain and eventually you're left with a chain that doesn't want to go up or down.

The rode puller motor and idler at the discharge of the spurling tube is stroke of genius but I think you'll need a half dozen sensors down there to keep an eye on things. I can think of several things on the windlass to both increase or decrease the speed of the rode by 1 or 2% which as you said is either going to stall the motor or allow a backup in the tube. If that were to happen to me while hauling anchor, the air would turn blue and the heavens black. Young children would learn a whole new vocabulary that day. Young mothers would pass out on the spot as the kiddies danced around screeching %#$^&%&*^!? at the top of their lungs.

You might want to think about taking a second look at your original chain locker. I know it's little consolation, but when I'm taking in the last of my chain, it's got about a 2-3" fall which really isn't too bad as long as you take a swing at it every couple of feet. And that's only towards the end of the haul.

I think that having a short drop is really an over rated problem unless you hope to do all your anchor work from the helm and that's pretty much impossible with the small lockers we have.

 

[mermike]

Ralph - Thanks for the comments. My cornflakes are unsullied, as this is a challenging project and I appreciate the input.

The design goal was to be able to retrieve from the cockpit when singlehanding.

I agree with the SS pipe. I used PVC electrical conduit for the test stand and it works well. It will wear quickly but will be easily replaced. I'm going to keep using it.

The motor is the weak point. It needs to be reliable and it currently isn't. The RPM of the motor is important. Too fast and it will wear the line. Too slow and it will jam. Some slippage is necessary, but not too much. The windlass retrieves at 91 ft/min. A 2" roller @ 300 RPM gives me 115 ft/min. That seems intuitively good. I have a motor that fits that spec with a lot more torque, but I'll have to redo the spindle and my machinist buddy is on vacation this week. I have a couple of different rollers to try. I considered adding an abrasive to the roller, but I think it will wear the line too much. I might try grinding some ridges into the surface to increase the grip.

I'm getting the feeling that a solution with a narrow sweet spot is going to cause bad words to issue, as you say. Your suggestion of using the locker as is, is a good one. Especially as this project is curtailing my cruising time. I'm thinking about how it would best work. Your windlass appears to be mounted at the aft end of the locker. I don't have the depth there. Placing it at the forward end of the locker will require some contortion to reach under the windlass and pull the rode out while holding down the button. A handheld switch would help.

More to come...

 

[thinwater]

An impressive start! A few thoughts, that may well be wrong:

• An all chain rode would feed better.
• Sch 80 PVC.
• Instead of glued bends and such, bend it using heat in one piece. Or at least to the extent practical. It will be smoother and bending PVC is pretty easy, compared to the other challenges.

Another possibility is to do what many cats do and move the windlass much farther back. Then the pipe would be straight down, perhaps tight against a bulkhead. Fewer moving parts.

 

[sailme88]

What do you plan to add or do to defuse the chain against the inner hull..?

 

[smokey73]

Cornflakes anyone. As an engineer myself I applaud you need to "make things better" but this solution seems to be fraught with multiple points of failure when you really need it.
1. The 5 degree angle of the stainless steel pipe seems to be a major design issue. As one who has a windlass that drops the chain onto a platform with way more than 5 degrees of slope (see Hunter discussions on having to help the chain fall into the locker). The motorized roller at the bottom of the feed is apparently there to address this but it becomes a major point of failure
2. Do you plan on having an automatic chain washdown? If not then muck on the chain can transfer into the stainless steel tube and muck up the free flow of the chain down to the lower motorized roller. Even if you do have an automatic washdown it won't be 100% effective and there will still be some muck. When this hardens in the stainless steel tube it will impeded any free fall of the chain down the tube putting more load on the motorized roller.
3. Have you provided for a way to bypass the system if the chain/rode hangs up in the tube on either going up or down? I see some foul language in your future.
4. You say you have a delay. Do you have a way to energize the motorized roller if the it cuts out but has not retrieved the chain.
5. It won't take much of a bunch in the chain or rode for it to jam in the lower end of the pipe to keep you from letting the chain out in an emergency (engine quits) and you have to get the anchor out in a hurry. How will you manage that.
6 How does your anchor locker drain? If that drain blocks up is there a path for water into the inside of the boat?
7. What is your access to the final resting point of the anchor chain/rode. It will probably stink after awhile with build up of muck and it appears this is inside the hull. Hopefully you don't have "an Admiral" to explain to why the boat stinks. This could be the biggest issue may may have to deal with.

My family always accuses me of trying to find engineering solutions to problems, which is a good thing, but it has to be tempered with "what could go wrong" and I see a lot of that here.

 

[mermike]

Cornflakes anyone. As an engineer myself I applaud you need to "make things better" but this solution seems to be fraught with multiple points of failure when you really need it.
1. The 5 degree angle of the stainless steel pipe seems to be a major design issue. As one who has a windlass that drops the chain onto a platform with way more than 5 degrees of slope (see Hunter discussions on having to help the chain fall into the locker). The motorized roller at the bottom of the feed is apparently there to address this but it becomes a major point of failure

Agreed. Unfortunately, all the other alternatives appear worse.

2. Do you plan on having an automatic chain washdown? If not then muck on the chain can transfer into the stainless steel tube and muck up the free flow of the chain down to the lower motorized roller. Even if you do have an automatic washdown it won't be 100% effective and there will still be some muck. When this hardens in the stainless steel tube it will impeded any free fall of the chain down the tube putting more load on the motorized roller.

Yes, but not immediately.

3. Have you provided for a way to bypass the system if the chain/rode hangs up in the tube on either going up or down? I see some foul language in your future.

Yes. If it jams, the rode falls into the existing locker.

4. You say you have a delay. Do you have a way to energize the motorized roller if the it cuts out but has not retrieved the chain.

The relay is a delay-on-break (Dayton 5WML9). When power is applied by pushing the windlass retrieve button, it stays on and remains on until the configured number of seconds have elapsed after power is cut.

5. It won't take much of a bunch in the chain or rode for it to jam in the lower end of the pipe to keep you from letting the chain out in an emergency (engine quits) and you have to get the anchor out in a hurry. How will you manage that.

Jamming occurs on retrieval and reversing the windlass clears it.

6 How does your anchor locker drain? If that drain blocks up is there a path for water into the inside of the boat?

I replumbed the drain after the pictures were taken.

7. What is your access to the final resting point of the anchor chain/rode. It will probably stink after awhile with build up of muck and it appears this is inside the hull. Hopefully you don't have "an Admiral" to explain to why the boat stinks. This could be the biggest issue may may have to deal with.

It's under the V-berth, which is also why, as @thinwater suggested, I can't move the windlass back farther. I'm considering collecting the rode in some sort of removable container for the occcasional hose-out. There will be a pickup for a Water Puppy bilge pump to eject any collected water.

My family always accuses me of trying to find engineering solutions to problems, which is a good thing, but it has to be tempered with "what could go wrong" and I see a lot of that here.

And I agree with you. If I can't get it to work reliably, it might as well not work at all. I've given it a lot of thought but haven't come up with anything more workable.

 

[mermike]

@thinwater, Good comments. Thank you.

• An all chain rode would feed better

An all-chain rode has also occured to me. The jamming at the pull motor mostly occurs at the splice. Once the chain is over the wheel, it drops pretty easily. However, I wonder if it will pile too high. I've got 4" of fall in the test stand when everything has been retrieved. Rope tends to compress and spread out more when the weight of the chain is on top.

*Edit* There's also the 330 lbs and $1600 of 300' of 5/16" BBB to consider.

• Sch 80 PVC.

The PVC electrical conduit in the test stand works well. I'll keep it.

Instead of glued bends and such, bend it using heat in one piece. Or at least to the extent practical. It will be smoother and bending PVC is pretty easy, compared to the other challenges.

There are only a few joints, and the need to occasionally disassemble it is a consideration. Plus if it's contructed of common, off-the-shelf parts, then repair or replacement is simple.

 

[smokey73]

Jamming occurs on retrieval and reversing the windlass clears it.

That may be the case in your test but I wouldn't bet my boat on that. I see you have a reversing windlass but you need to be able to release the anchor to fall free if the windlass fails for some reason or you need to get the anchor out in a hurry (ask me how I know). When that happens the chain/rode pays out much quicker and can easily "jump" as it pays out. The "jumping" might be damped by the lower roller, but any thing below the roller, could form a bight and hockel with the rapid release and then you'd be left to drift where you might not want to. You have to do a thorough analysis of what could go wrong and how will I deal with that.



It's under the V-berth, which is also why, as @thinwater suggested, I can't move the windlass back farther. I'm considering collecting the rode in some sort of removable container for the occcasional hose-out. There will be a pickup for a Water Puppy bilge pump to eject any collected water.

Before I proceeded any further, I'd take as small bucket of "bottom muck" mixed in with a sprinkle of "sea-growth/weeds" mixed in that might be apt to go with the chain down to the place were the chain/rode will be piled up and see what it smells like. We have a thing down here called "pluff mud" and it doesn't take much inside the boat (like on a shoe or boot) to smell up the place very quickly, especially if it stays there for awhile. It is going to take more than an "occasional hose-out" to deal with what would be a deal breaker for me and especially the Admiral. If Momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy! And to boot, it will take more than a "hose out" to get rid of the smell. It is okay in an open vented anchor locker that does not open to the interior of the boat.

 

[mermike]

The "jumping" might be damped by the lower roller, but any thing below the roller, could form a bight and hockel with the rapid release

Not likely much different from any anchor locker. Even less likely to get messed up if fenders and other bits are not stored with the rode anyway. Besides, if it's jammed, ir's jammed. If throwing out the anchor is the solution to a problem, then a) I shouldn't have gotten into that situation in the first place, and b) what's the difference if it jams in one place or another? Either way it's time to reach for the backup anchor.

I should clarify that the only time a "jam" happens is when the tensioning motor doesn't do its job. The line or chain doesn't itself jam, and never has over repeated tests. It backs up the spurling pipe and falls into the anchor locker. One thing that testing showed is that a gap is necessary between the windlass and the spurling pipe so this can happen, or it really does get jammed up in the windlass. I also added some guides below the tensioning motor to keep the rode on the roller when deploying.

I get the concern over odor. Others have raised it as well. I won't know how big a deal it is until I try it, I guess. There are bigger problems remaining that may not be worth solving. I'm giving more thought to @Ralph Johnstone's installation at the aft end of the locker.

Everything on a boat is a compromise.

 

[smokey73]

As I suggested. Take a small bucket of "muck" from where you would normally cruise and store it where the chain will set and see what happens. Add a little "organic" matter like sea grass or whatever else is common up there to make sure its representative of what might come up with the anchor chain. I see you are in the PNW so maybe its not a problem up there. Down here in South Carolina and probably anywhere along the southeast coast it would be intolerable in very short order.

 

[jssailem]

A handheld switch would help.

I purchased one of these.
Wireless Winch Remote Control Kit for Truck Jeep ATV SUV Auto Winch with indicator light DC 12V 433MHZ Switch Handset Waterproof

Amazon Price about $20. wires into your controller.
They are simple to install and have worked like a charm from the foredeck or the helm.

 

[mermike]

After more testing yesterday, I'm abandoning the spurling pipe, for now at least.

I retrieved the rode out of a tub of water. The tensioning moter worked great when the line was wet, but water sprayed everywhere. Duh. I'd need to move the motor a couple of feet away and fabricate a cover or hood to contain the spray. Complications upon complications have used up all the time I've alloted for this project, by a factor of 2. It's time to go sailing. I'll retrieve into the existing anchor locker knowing that I will have to shift the rode around while retrieving. It will still better than hauling it up by hand. That's the hope at least.

John - thanks for the link to the wireless remote. I'll give that a shot.

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

Complications upon complications have used up all the time I've alloted for this project, by a factor of 2.

Let us know when you're back at the drawing table.

 

[jssailem]

Best of luck. Keep in touch. I’m a land lubber til August 1. Then finish the project priority list and untie the lines. The winds of Foggust and the Brew Pubs/ Wineries of the Salish Sea will dictate the direction and distance I cruise. Maple Bay and Saturna are starred on my charts.

 

[mermike]

I'm hoping to finish up Windlass Plan B tomorrow and head to PL late this week. A day or 2 to complete the job (and no more dangit!) then we're off. Not sure which direction yet. Barkley Sound or up the inside.

 

[mermike]

Plan B is neither pretty (yet) nor elegant. But it works.