I'm not sure of the advantages of or why someone would want to use water for balast. It is neutrally bouyant and would not really seem to add mass below the water line. Does it really do anything other than lower the waterline by partially sinking the boat?
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Michael Bell
Yep.
Cause when you heel the boat up, your raising a portion of the water above the water line. Hence – weight. At the end of the day, you dump the ballast weight back in the lake and load your sailboat onto the trailer as though it was a motorboat (low on the trailer).
Cause when you heel the boat up, your raising a portion of the water above the water line. Hence – weight. At the end of the day, you dump the ballast weight back in the lake and load your sailboat onto the trailer as though it was a motorboat (low on the trailer).
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Al
Doug King article
Bill, you might want to read Doug King's article (http://www.trailersailor.com/content/features/read.cgi?14) on sailboat stability. It might make more sense to you after reading it...
Bill, you might want to read Doug King's article (http://www.trailersailor.com/content/features/read.cgi?14) on sailboat stability. It might make more sense to you after reading it...
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Dale Wile
Reasons?
True, water is neutrally bouyant if it is free-flowing in a water medium. When confined to a ballast tank, it takes on very different physical characteristics. As the water-ballasted boat heels, the captured water rises above the waterline, thus causing the necessary righting action. Further, the water provides inexpensive weight to offset an otherwise tender condition of a lightweight hull. Water is inexpensive ballast. Have you priced lead lately? In combination with a swing keel, the below hull extension is reduced for easier launching and removal and for lower positioning on the trailer. And, when the water ballast is drained during retrieval to the trailer, the traveling weight is substantially reduced, resulting in easier towing and less fuel consumption by the towing vehicle. I, too, would recommend reading the article on the TrailerSailor web site.
True, water is neutrally bouyant if it is free-flowing in a water medium. When confined to a ballast tank, it takes on very different physical characteristics. As the water-ballasted boat heels, the captured water rises above the waterline, thus causing the necessary righting action. Further, the water provides inexpensive weight to offset an otherwise tender condition of a lightweight hull. Water is inexpensive ballast. Have you priced lead lately? In combination with a swing keel, the below hull extension is reduced for easier launching and removal and for lower positioning on the trailer. And, when the water ballast is drained during retrieval to the trailer, the traveling weight is substantially reduced, resulting in easier towing and less fuel consumption by the towing vehicle. I, too, would recommend reading the article on the TrailerSailor web site.
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Tom Wootton
Another reason
With a centerboard and water ballast, I can beach my H26, and motor in shoal water. I can go lots of places that are inaccessable in a keelboat.
With a centerboard and water ballast, I can beach my H26, and motor in shoal water. I can go lots of places that are inaccessable in a keelboat.
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Bill
Read article
I've read the article. Interesting and informative. It would seem that water ballast would be effective only when the boat is heeled over pretty far. The distance from the boat cg to the water would be fairly short. Therefore it would take a lot of water within the hull to have a similar effect as an iron or lead bulb at the end of a fixed or swing keel. From the description the water ballasted boat would be fairly tender at low heel angles.
I've read the article. Interesting and informative. It would seem that water ballast would be effective only when the boat is heeled over pretty far. The distance from the boat cg to the water would be fairly short. Therefore it would take a lot of water within the hull to have a similar effect as an iron or lead bulb at the end of a fixed or swing keel. From the description the water ballasted boat would be fairly tender at low heel angles.
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Dale Wile
True, but...
Your most recent observations are essentially accurate, but everything in sailing is a compromise, to one degree or another.
Your most recent observations are essentially accurate, but everything in sailing is a compromise, to one degree or another.
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Brigg Franklin
Tender and stiff
Doug King's article was excellent and yes at low angles of heel the boat will be "tender". My 260 will heel 2 to 4 degrees in a light wind with the crew on the lee side. My water ballest is only starting to come into play and provide the righting arm. However as the boat starts to heel more the apparent "weight" of the 2000 pounds of water in the tank also increases and she becomes stiffer. The sine wave from Doug's article starts a little later but then increases at a steeper angle. At around 10 degrees I have approximatly the same righting arm as a fixed keel boat of the same size and adding the crew (movable ballast) on the high side helps for both types of boats. As a sailing instructor I've sailed many types of 24 to 30 foot fixed keel boats, racing and cruising and would put the 260 up against any of them for heeling qualities. For trailering there is no comparison when you consider a 20' Santana with fixed keel must be lifted off its trailer with a crane. Brigg
Doug King's article was excellent and yes at low angles of heel the boat will be "tender". My 260 will heel 2 to 4 degrees in a light wind with the crew on the lee side. My water ballest is only starting to come into play and provide the righting arm. However as the boat starts to heel more the apparent "weight" of the 2000 pounds of water in the tank also increases and she becomes stiffer. The sine wave from Doug's article starts a little later but then increases at a steeper angle. At around 10 degrees I have approximatly the same righting arm as a fixed keel boat of the same size and adding the crew (movable ballast) on the high side helps for both types of boats. As a sailing instructor I've sailed many types of 24 to 30 foot fixed keel boats, racing and cruising and would put the 260 up against any of them for heeling qualities. For trailering there is no comparison when you consider a 20' Santana with fixed keel must be lifted off its trailer with a crane. Brigg
You would not want water ballast.......
Bill: I agree that you would not want water ballast as you primary source unless you are trailoring you vessel. There are many racing boats that use water ballast as a secondary system (like the HC50). If you think about this system for someone that is moving their boats in and out of the water it makes a lot of sense and it is cheap and efficent. It is difficult to tow a 5,000 lb boat and trailor with anything but a large vehicle or a good truck today.
Bill: I agree that you would not want water ballast as you primary source unless you are trailoring you vessel. There are many racing boats that use water ballast as a secondary system (like the HC50). If you think about this system for someone that is moving their boats in and out of the water it makes a lot of sense and it is cheap and efficent. It is difficult to tow a 5,000 lb boat and trailor with anything but a large vehicle or a good truck today.
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Kate
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Jesse Mulanax
Water Ballast!
Even the competiors in the America's Cup uses water ballast as a secondary source as Steve mentions. And they don't have to be worried about the costs!
Even the competiors in the America's Cup uses water ballast as a secondary source as Steve mentions. And they don't have to be worried about the costs!
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John Frederick
Water Ballast
The captured water in the bottom of the boat acts exactly like a lead keel with one exception. The lead keel places the weight at a moment lower (or a greater distance from the boats center of gravity) than a water ballasted boat, hence a greater heel angle when the boat stiffens. Once you learn the boats sailing characteristics you begin to appreciate the towing and storage benefit of a water ballasted boat.
The captured water in the bottom of the boat acts exactly like a lead keel with one exception. The lead keel places the weight at a moment lower (or a greater distance from the boats center of gravity) than a water ballasted boat, hence a greater heel angle when the boat stiffens. Once you learn the boats sailing characteristics you begin to appreciate the towing and storage benefit of a water ballasted boat.
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Mark
Oh well Kate
I guess it adds to the interest. And isn't this an interesting one? Funny how some jump to conclusions. I mean we have a 260 in our fleet. She does exactly what we expected, nothing more nothing less. A fine yacht for what it is. Yeah we are happy. Very happy indeed and when we want to mix it with the big seas or the races we jump ship into one of the others that was "built for that purpose". Simple isn't it?
I guess it adds to the interest. And isn't this an interesting one? Funny how some jump to conclusions. I mean we have a 260 in our fleet. She does exactly what we expected, nothing more nothing less. A fine yacht for what it is. Yeah we are happy. Very happy indeed and when we want to mix it with the big seas or the races we jump ship into one of the others that was "built for that purpose". Simple isn't it?
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alan
A deep lead keel is stiffer than a water...
...ballasted boat of the same design. I've sailed my 26, a 260 wb and a 260 keel (now called the 270) and the keeled version heels less, reefs latter and therefore is faster towards the wind in a blow. alan
...ballasted boat of the same design. I've sailed my 26, a 260 wb and a 260 keel (now called the 270) and the keeled version heels less, reefs latter and therefore is faster towards the wind in a blow. alan
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Mark
Yep I agree Alan
You buy a boat for a particular purpose. No good buying a mini and expect it to outrun a Ferrari. Get a yacht that suits your needs and enjoy. Forget about the knockers cos most of them are dreamers.
You buy a boat for a particular purpose. No good buying a mini and expect it to outrun a Ferrari. Get a yacht that suits your needs and enjoy. Forget about the knockers cos most of them are dreamers.
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Bill
mini vs. ferreri
I'm crushed!! You mean that new Mini won't outrun that clunky old Ferreri? Well, just what is it good for then. ;-)
I'm crushed!! You mean that new Mini won't outrun that clunky old Ferreri? Well, just what is it good for then. ;-)
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Crazy Dave Condon
Promoted for
I will put my big foot in my mouth on this one. Years ago when I promoted the water ballast boats to Hunter in 1990, the sole purpose was for trailerability. At that time the 23 wing and the 18.5 were the only trailerable boats they had at the time which was very difficult to raise masts, launch and so forth. I found most folks wanted trailerability. Granted a keel boat is stiffer and just a little faster but we needed a boat that one person could handle to include mast rasing, launching & retrieving, sailing and so forth with alot of room and features. In some places, slips were scarce and most ramps cannot handle a keel boat launching. MacGregor with their introduction of the 26 in August of 1986 for the model year 1987 addressed this and they were successful with it. There is no question in my mind which is the better boat. Hunter was holding its breath as to the outcome. The 23.5 was an instant winner when it was introduced on August 15, 1992 at Smith Mountain Lake. Since then, there have been many changes. This is how the Hunter water ballast boats came into being. Crazy Dave Condon
I will put my big foot in my mouth on this one. Years ago when I promoted the water ballast boats to Hunter in 1990, the sole purpose was for trailerability. At that time the 23 wing and the 18.5 were the only trailerable boats they had at the time which was very difficult to raise masts, launch and so forth. I found most folks wanted trailerability. Granted a keel boat is stiffer and just a little faster but we needed a boat that one person could handle to include mast rasing, launching & retrieving, sailing and so forth with alot of room and features. In some places, slips were scarce and most ramps cannot handle a keel boat launching. MacGregor with their introduction of the 26 in August of 1986 for the model year 1987 addressed this and they were successful with it. There is no question in my mind which is the better boat. Hunter was holding its breath as to the outcome. The 23.5 was an instant winner when it was introduced on August 15, 1992 at Smith Mountain Lake. Since then, there have been many changes. This is how the Hunter water ballast boats came into being. Crazy Dave Condon
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alan
Dave, I would venture that a lot of us keep them..
...in the water. We like the shallow draft, ability to dump the ballast if grounded (never rigged the pump though) and the other things that you mentioned. Thought of getting a boat with a steel swing keel as it might be stiffer but rejected that as a potential maintenance problem and safety issue if knocked down. I wonder if they would consider making a lifting keel in a boat like this? alan PS The rudder $uck$, when will they get that strait?
...in the water. We like the shallow draft, ability to dump the ballast if grounded (never rigged the pump though) and the other things that you mentioned. Thought of getting a boat with a steel swing keel as it might be stiffer but rejected that as a potential maintenance problem and safety issue if knocked down. I wonder if they would consider making a lifting keel in a boat like this? alan PS The rudder $uck$, when will they get that strait?
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John Pollitt
Another reason
For those of us more northerly, who keep their's in a slip, backing in a trailer and storing on it for the winter are definite considerations. Sure beats needing a lift and cradle. John S/V Icymoon
For those of us more northerly, who keep their's in a slip, backing in a trailer and storing on it for the winter are definite considerations. Sure beats needing a lift and cradle. John S/V Icymoon
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Crazy Dave Condon
swing keel adds weight to towing
Need a larger vehicle if you are pulling 6800 (metal keel) versus 4800 pounds.
Need a larger vehicle if you are pulling 6800 (metal keel) versus 4800 pounds.
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